base_rigger 0 #1 October 9, 2006 I would like to hear the opinions from EXPERT WS fliers about the wing cutaway system. Here is my 0.02. The wing cutaway was originally implemented in the very first “modern” WS as well as the first production WS for two purposes: Hook up the suit and to offer a way to release the wings given the still novel “environment” of WS. Over a decade has passed since those early times and IMO the cutaway system the way I see it is now primarily used as a hook-up system only. Many experienced BASE jumpers report that is faster to unzip than to release the cables. As for the leg cutaway system, with the newer trend of wider leg stance it’s very possible to land the canopy with the legs still fully hook-up. So here is the question: Do you really think a arm wing cutaway system is really necessary (other than hook-up)?You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #2 October 9, 2006 QuoteSo here is the question: Do you really think a arm wing cutaway system is really necessary (other than hook-up)? Last chance from flat-spin mals? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratman05 0 #3 October 9, 2006 zippers break and get caught. would not be fun to have the zipper malfunction and the canopy at the same time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #4 October 9, 2006 I for one among many experienced fliers do not believe that cutting away the wings is the correct response for a flat-spin.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #5 October 9, 2006 QuoteSo here is the question: Do you really think a arm wing cutaway system is really necessary (other than hook-up)? Jammed zippers. Pretty much every zip up bag, sleeping bag, jacket etc. I've ever owned has jammed at some point - why should I trust that it'll never happen with my suit?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #6 October 9, 2006 Quote I for one among many experienced fliers do not believe that cutting away the wings is the correct response for a flat-spin. Ok, but it is still part of the FFC. I could not decide it by myself, because I have not ever had any flat spin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #7 October 9, 2006 QuoteDo you really think a arm wing cutaway system is really necessary (other than hook-up)? If you have infinite trust in zippers not breaking, I could see a hook-up system like the S-Fly, with no rigging cables at all.. But when the cutaway system is rigged like the S-Fly (which can be troublesome to get into, if you're not carefull you can pull it out when putting on the suit) I believe most BASE-ers do use it (as in that case, it is quicker to pull the one toggle-release on your chest, instead of unzipping 2 zippers) Having seen quite a few suits (mostly Matter) that suck up handles, with the non-adjustable rigging 'holes', I personaly prefer the cable rigging system. As it means the suit will always be adjustable to a perfect fit, no matter what length the rig or user is. QuoteOk, but it is still part of the FFC People I've heard giving flatspin briefings lately did mention cuting away the wing, but only as a last, last, last 'probably wont help, but do it if you think it will help you, do so' procedure... But 'balling up' seems to be the only good working solution. Havent heard of any stories that seem to indicate otherwise... the legwing seems to be the cause of the spin, taking out the armwings doesnt sound like a logical solution to the problem..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #8 October 9, 2006 QuoteIf you have infinite trust in zippers not breaking Good point. However there have been major advances in "zipping" technology... Here is a good source: http://www.riri.com/Flash.htmYou know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #9 October 9, 2006 Quote However there have been major advances in "zipping" technology... There wil always be one person that proves you wrong...and in case of base and a spinning (or even just offheading) opening...that could be a fatality...Why get rid of a working, proven system of cutaway cables? All it takes is a little piece of fabric/sweater, stuck between your zipper, and no matter what space-age-technology, the zipper wil jam..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #10 October 9, 2006 QuoteQuote I for one among many experienced fliers do not believe that cutting away the wings is the correct response for a flat-spin. Ok, but it is still part of the FFC. It's not in mine... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsane 0 #11 October 9, 2006 Just for jammed zippers (I've had it happen twice) the cutaways are worthwhile. And you can bet your ass that if I'm spinning away in a ball on my back, pulling those handles is going to look very attractive. I've watched a VERY experienced flyer pull them in that situation and he was instantly stable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Costyn 0 #12 October 9, 2006 QuoteBut when the cutaway system is rigged like the S-Fly (which can be troublesome to get into, if you're not carefull you can pull it out when putting on the suit) Actually Fly Your Body has fixed this in recent suits by adding some magnetic snaps to which the 2 velcro ends of the release cables can be "stowed" while you are getting in and out of the suit. And yes, I'd prefer to keep the release system as it is. Zippers can fail, I for one would NOT like to be under canopy not being able to reach my toggles and heading for a river (or any body of water), a forest or other places you don't want to land.Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sylvain 0 #13 October 9, 2006 Quote But when the cutaway system is rigged like the S-Fly (which can be troublesome to get into, if you're not carefull you can pull it out when putting on the suit) That's very unlikely to happen with the new model, as the two parts of the cutaway handle can be attached to the suit with a magnet. -- Sylvain Edit : Costyn you were faster than me on that one :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #14 October 9, 2006 QuoteOk, but it is still part of the FFC. It's not taught in the FFC as the solution to a flat spin. Cutting the arm wings away in order to remedy a flat spin is not taught because it simply doesn't work to stop the flat spin. The only thing that will stop a flat spin is balling up into a fetal position. As Mccordia has said, it is a very last ditch effort to aid the person in returning to a belly to earth orientation AFTER they have balled up and stopped the flat spin. Pulling the arm wings prior to stopping the flat spin is counter productive and actually makes it more difficult to control because you no longer have control of the arm wings. It is also a huge waste of time and altitude as people have to fight the G-forces to locate and pull their handles as they continue spinning out of control. A flat spin will put the jumper on their back as they spin, closing the leg and arm wings down alone will not stop the flat spin if the person isn't in a fetal position as their body will continue to act as one big helicopter blade and continue the flat spin. The correct way to teach and handle a flat spin is as follows: 1. BALL UP IMMEDIATELY. Hold this position until the flat spin stops. It will be apparent when the flat spin stops and the tumbling or instability begins. 2. REGAIN STABILITY. This may require one to regain a belly to earth orientation or to “roll out of bed”. Look for the ground while tumbling, stay in tucked position. 3. OPEN ARM WINGS. When the ground is seen, open the arm wings and the tumbling will stop. 4. EXTEND LEGS AND OPEN LEG WING. Resume flight, reorient to the DZ, fly back to the DZ. For what ever reason, people seem to latch onto the "pull the arm wing releases" as THE solution to a flat spin and forgot all the rest. When I teach this in the FFC or instructors course, I make sure that there is no doubt on what the corrective action is and more importantly, explain why. The arm cut away system,as was mentioned, allows for a more precise fitting of the suit to the container/person and ensures emergency handles are accessible and not swallowed by the suit accidentally.The zippers are the primary way to free ones arms, the cutaway system is a secondary system in the event that a zipper jams or other mishap prevents the zippers from being used. Larger leg wings make kicking out easier than on smaller suits but again, the leg cutaway(LQRS) allows the user to free one leg up completely in the event that a leg zipper jams and they need to run it out or land in an unfamiliar area. Unzipping the arms can be done very quickly if the arms are brought back in front of the jumper after pitching(skydiving) and you have less in your hands(cables) or chances of loosing a cable so your hands are free do do other things like steer your parachute.So to answer the original posters question. Yes, I think the arm cutaway system is necessary for other than hooking up."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #15 October 9, 2006 I do like the cutaway system as it is. I've used it quiker than I can un-zip a suit to deal with line twists. Also if someone is in a borrowed loose fitting suit the zippers may be bunched and not so linear to smoothly operate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdynamnam 28 #16 October 9, 2006 I agree to that procedure, with the following adjustment: 1. BALL UP IMMEDIATELY keeping the "ball" tight. Hold this position until the flat spin stops. It will be apparent when the flat spin stops and the tumbling or instability begins. Scott: should the BM FFC material be updated? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #17 October 9, 2006 QuoteScott: should the BM FFC material be updated? It has been for some time. I am the one who makes the updates and has managed the instructor program documentation since we stood the program up.All of the BMCIs should have the latest and greatest info as I send out updates and or modifications to the Instructor and FFC as they are made. Most of the changes or additions are for the BMCI to use in teaching and should filter down to the BMIs and students. The information about handling flat spins has been out for a long time and "pulling the wing cutaways" hasn't been taught to BMIs or in the FFC for about 3+ years now. Or I should say, thats not the correct way the procedure should be taught to anyone."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #18 October 9, 2006 "If it ain't broke - don't fix it." tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #19 October 10, 2006 Quote 1. BALL UP IMMEDIATELY. Hold this position until the flat spin stops. It will be apparent when the flat spin stops and the tumbling or instability begins. Shouldn't that be "until the flat spin slows down"? My first serious flat spin didn't stop when I balled up and I burned up 4k waiting for it to happen. Of course, it didn't stop because I was doing something wrong when I balled up, but since then I've never waited for a flat spin to stop before going belly to recover. I just use it to slow down a little and I know of way more experienced flyers than me that do the same thing(slow down, flip and fly out of the spin). I was initially taught the spin would stop when I balled up and it scared the shit out of me when it didn't do that for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tornolf 0 #20 October 10, 2006 QuoteThe only thing that will stop a flat spin is balling up into a fetal position. I've found that flipping over on your stomach and then flying was much quicker to recover the spin than it was to ball up. I've used that method over a dozen times with two of the spins being fairly violent. Of the rest that occured, I was expecting them to happen and had no problem using that method even if I stayed limp in the spin for 5-7 seconds. Notably, in one of the violent spins, I found it much more difficult to ball up due to the rotation throwing my body outward, so I decided to just revert back to my twist and fly method which had me stable and flying a few seconds after I opened up. All of this experience was on an S1. I miss that suit A waddling elephant seal is the cutest thing in the entire world. -TJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #21 October 10, 2006 Mark: QuoteShouldn't that be "until the flat spin slows down"? My first serious flat spin didn't stop when I balled up and I burned up 4k waiting for it to happen. Of course, it didn't stop because I was doing something wrong when I balled up, but since then I've never waited for a flat spin to stop before going belly to recover. Tornolf: QuoteI've found that flipping over on your stomach and then flying was much quicker to recover the spin than it was to ball up... I found it much more difficult to ball up due to the rotation throwing my body outward, Mark, a flat spin will not slow down until something causes it to stop, be it you or impact. The longer you allow a flat spin to go on the more momentum it will gain and as Tornolf mentioned, it will be harder to ball up as the G forces increase. For this reason it is important that as soon as a flat spin hapens to ball up and not let it gain momentum. Balling up will stop the flat spin but it doesn't mean it will return you to a belly to earth orientation. There is a distinct difference between a flat spin and the instability/tumbling that follows after a flat spin is broken/stopped.There is a very big difference in the two. If you aren't violently spinning around on your back, you aren't in a flat spin anymore. It is during the tumbling/ instability that one can regain a belly to earth orientation by following the procedures I posted above. Flipping over is possible but requires a good deal of strength and won't always work like balling up will.Balling up works every time....when done correctly. Flipping over usually works with the slower spin that is often created when doing acrobatics. Flipping over is impossible if the flat spin begins violently or it is allowed to build momentum.This is the typical flat spin and can occur during exit be it bumping into someone/thing, catching the prop wash unsymetrical or during a flocking collision.Trying to flip over in these situations usually results in a porpoise-ing/flailing movement and the flat spin continues to build momentum and valuable altitude is lost. By balling up as soon as the flat spin begins you stop it from gaining momentum and also save altitude by being able to quickly recover and reassume flying."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tornolf 0 #22 October 10, 2006 What do you consider a violent flat spin? The worst one I've encountered (the one I referred to) I twisted out of using the same twisting technique I use in gymnastics/diving. It lasted for 5-7 seconds and I felt myself start to get extremely light headed and woozy very quickly which was one of the scariest experiences of my life. When I got stable, my head felt like I had held my breath for a very long time and had just come up for air. The first second and a half were caught on video by pure dumb luck and and showed me doing 2-2.5 rotations/second on my back. It occured after I was knocked almost sideways during exit on a tracking jump out of a CASA where I was the only wingsuit jumper. The spin was my fault for not considering it a likely possibility when leaving with the group rather than before or after. I don't think I've ever seen video of a faster flat spin, but I don't like having the "honor" of the fastest. I'll see if I can find the guy who got the video. I never copied it over since I figured it'd be burned into my memory forever. I don't think I'd recommend my technique to anyone unless they have some kind of acrobatic background (proper technique goes a LONG way) and are willing to intentionally put themselves into a few spins to see how they like the recovery. It is definitely a bit weird the first couple of times but becomes second nature pretty quickly. I'm curious about spins again. Next time I'm at the DZ I'll see what I can do in my Prodigy since I don't plan on throwing my V2 into an intentional spin Doubt it'll be very similar due to the wing design though. *edited because I should never post just before going to bed. I got a headache just trying to read it A waddling elephant seal is the cutest thing in the entire world. -TJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #23 October 10, 2006 TJ, You may find that you have applicable gynmastics/diving skills that 99% of other wingsuit pilots simply do not possess. And that's not to leave out current fitness to perform those techniques.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pierre3636 0 #24 October 10, 2006 Tornolf - that’s sounds hectic - I have had a few nasty's too when I got into acro (and was jumping a back inflating suit). The first time it’s really happened to me bad was a similar experience to yours except it started with barrel rolls. Luckily I was quite high but it I distinctly remember feeling like there is nothing I can do to stop it, I cut away my arm in a desperate attempt which didn’t help ANY. I tried balling up again going as small as I possible could and the spinning stopped. I was at 3.5k and deployed straight away. In my opinion cutting away your wings is a waste of time in a flat spin. Realising that you are about to start spinning and balling up IMMIDEATLY to stop the momentum before it starts feeding on its self is much more important. That’s the biggest lesson ive learned actually in dealing with spins. Knowing when the wing is starting a spin and rather than being rigid immediately closing down your tail and balling up. (ask tonto how white in the face I was after that event !) moral of my story is ... i dont condone using the cut away system in the event of a flat spin (personally) ~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #25 October 10, 2006 QuoteWhat do you consider a violent flat spin? THIS is a pretty good example of a violent spin and proof that pulling the arm cutaways is worthless to stop the spin. In fact, watch the speed of the rotations after the arms are cutaway and you will notice an increase in the revolutions."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
