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SBCmac

S6 vs. V1 or V2

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Do you mean bend your knees up? :o.



I`ll rephrase it - i push down with my knees and dearch at hips. It would be better to dearch while keeping straight legs but its physically impossible to hold that position. Hense knees bend a bit as a trade-off. Straight legs causing slight arch seem to cause unacceptable vertical speeds. Many would disagree here, every body is different :)
bsbd!

Yuri.

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I`ll rephrase it - i push down with my knees and dearch at hips. It would be better to dearch while keeping straight legs but its physically impossible to hold that position. Hense knees bend a bit as a trade-off.



Very interesting Yuri. I have actually always noticed something similar when maxing out my S3 in the sky, and I thought it was just me. Is this observation of yours unique to the V2, or would you say it applies to other high-end suits (waiting for a joke about how my suit is not high-end)?

I've always noticed that when I lift my hips up (de-arch), my knees naturally bend a bit. I always assumed the knees bent because my body was naturally balancing itself, and due to my build (long legs) I would tip over forward too steep (dive) without the knee bend. You say that it is physically impossible to hold a de-arch at the hips with straight knees - do you mean because of the effort required to do it in flight? Because on the ground it certainly doesn't seem impossible as far as flexibility goes... but in flight while resisting air pressure, it could be a different story. Again, I thought it was just me and if I was able to balance myself better I could get those knees locked AND hips up, and was always disappointed when I couldn't. I never was able to fully explain it though.
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Here's what I found so far after 15 flights on V-2.

V-2 seems to be balanced significantly "nose-down" (at least, for my body). Combined with good glide angle due to good overall aerodynamics of the suit, this results in a rather small angle of attack, giving the suit its tremendous speed. However, the small angle of attack doesn't produce the best glide.

It's much like receiving a canopy from the factory with A-B lines 6" shorter than they should be. Effectively, you fly on double fronts without even pulling on them. Lots of speed, but not the best glide.

I experimented with ankle weights this weekend and with 7lbs. on my ankles the suit feels much better. Body almost parallel to horizon, less speed, less effort to fly and better glide. Cleared the edge of a cloud field that at first seemed impossible to clear. The suit just wants to fly! ;) Also, the turns are much flatter.

I'll experiment with heavier weights to find the stall point. As with any wing, the best glide is rather close to stall.

Again, balance is very dependent on body type (even an inch up or down can make a noticeable difference), so YMMV.

Yuri
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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Well, you got me Matt :$. I meant keeping the knees straight and pushing the legs down from the torso...hence the mention of ab workouts.....;).

Yuri_base,

After going for significantly nose down and high speed flights at Kjerag, I flattened out the first few flights at the ITW the third flight was too slow and got me a 55 sec flight with opening altitude of about 900ft. The glide(steady state between 1000m and 500m is quite good)...however there is a 25mph forward speed loss(remember?). This was 17.3 m/s downward.

I don't belive the GPS data from the next flight flight(overall fallrate is just under 15 m/s and glide is too good) but FWIW, it was a slower flight forward and downward than I usually fly. Will try more of this from airplane and cliffs next year. Winters here :(.

What can definately be learnt is

a) Glide is great when the course is not off by much...this flight had a variation of only 7 degrees from the 9th to the 47th second. This is also inline with observations from my airplane jumps. Quite logical too...if the wing is not symmetric horizontally we are spilling more air than necessary.

b) If you want to impress the chicks, learn to fly in a straight line....that way the arrival height at a well known point like above the LZ or the Bar is higher :P.

Kris.

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knees bend a bit as a trade-off.



Very interesting Yuri. I have actually always noticed something similar when maxing out my S3 in the sky, and I thought it was just me. Is this observation of yours unique to the V2?



I noticed this, too, on V-2. Dropping knees a little improves the glide. By dropping knees, you tame the over-hungry V-2's forward speed and increase the angle of attack, bringing it to more optimal angle. This improves the glide, although the suit actually becomes a bit less efficient. It's a trade-off.

Just another manifestation of balance. ;)
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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Well first off let me say that I don't base jump so glide angle close to the ground is not something I can notice.

I have found that with a flat / rigid body -- sucking my gut in flat (normally it kinds of sticks out) gives me the best performance --- from 13.5 to 2kish I have got right at 3 minutes and I had to do a 180 after flying up line of flight. We were wicked long to be flying up line of flight after exit, I would guess 4.5 miles out at least.

I don't have GPS and I use a protrack for averages and a camera to calculate flight times.

I am sure my flight would have been longer if I wasn't a pussy and actually worked out at some point and time -- but I got fuckin' tired. Via protrack the average for the first 119 seconds was 47mph -first half was 53mph --- 180 turn and 2nd half was 42.


That was my very first flight on the V2 --- since then I have been flying with friends because as I mentioned above I am a pussy and the kind of jump mentioned above hurts.

At break off I still punch it out and looking a graphs I fly on average at 35-38mph for at least 10 to 15 seconds before deployment (that is normally done after slowing down from the 60ish flocking speed)
During breakoff I am definetly moving forward at a fast pace, not nearly as fast as Ted but he tends to dive the suit during break off which puts him faster forward and me much higher but we still seem to open in the same place.

Thats something that needs to be discussed more
which is better - diving the suit for speed(sacrificing some of the vertical slowness) or trying to balance everything for slow vertical decent and good forward speed if the end result is we open at the same place at the same altitude, I just take longer to get there.

I think it will boil down to what you like better hauling ass across the ground or more balanced flight with longer delays---------if the end result is the same.


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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During breakoff I am definetly moving forward at a fast pace, not nearly as fast as Ted but he tends to dive the suit during break off which puts him faster forward and me much higher but we still seem to open in the same place.

Thats something that needs to be discussed more
which is better - diving the suit for speed(sacrificing some of the vertical slowness) or trying to balance everything for slow vertical decent and good forward speed if the end result is we open at the same place at the same altitude, I just take longer to get there.

I think it will boil down to what you like better hauling ass across the ground or more balanced flight with longer delays---------if the end result is the same.



I have some GPS data on that, however me and Darren(the dive and plane out guy) are quite differently built for the exact same weight(160 lbs). Yeah, I am not a 190 lb Texan anymore.

Diving after the exit and planing out gives incredible forward speed(110-140 mph for 18 secs) and the glide during this period is 3.3(starting speed is 116 mph so no surprise)....the overall glide before turning(he flies to the road and turns) on his jumps was less than 2.0. My glide in the Phantom is better...I don't dive.

Kris.

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I think flattening the glide angle can also be done by paying more attention to your arm wings. After seeing some photos of me flying by Costyn, I noticed the armwing shape could use some improvement. You can not just hold the grippers loosely like a S3/S but you have to really push them down and out a bit (for maximum performance not for flocking). This way you should also get a bit more headsup and flatten the glide.

and Jarno, you can kiss the PF logo on my color coded butt deflector:P:ph34r:
Tristan
Will you answer "NO" to my next question?

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I am one of the big culprits myself....:$

Back to Topic...discuss...

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It's a step back, flocking wise (regardless of speed and efficiency) and that doesn't make sense to me.




Chuck, after opening 3 new walls with V2 over the weekend i very strongly suggest you reconsider. It took about 30 flights to dial it in, but now V2 flies like absolutely nothing else in the sky. I am much happier on this trip than i was with the same suit in the same mountains a month ago

This does include the best vertical range out there. The only way i can possibly see you wishing for more is if you want to fly slow in both horizontal and vertical dimentions - but then you just need a large surface area, a big tarp you could schlare

bsbd!

Yuri.

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........... and looking a graphs I fly on average at 35-38mph for at least 10 to 15 seconds.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Holy shit, are you geeking the software??? And you guys pick on Zach?!? Thats weak, Later dhaweeb.




In response to Glen's rude comment --- after looking at porn on the internet for hours at time I usually down load my pro-track which is the only log book i keep. It is very hard to not look at what has happened on the jump as I type in my views in the comment section (as I keep looking at porn). So I really think I am quite manly (You heard me say I was looking at porn right?) and not a geek.

As for Zach.................well, Zach your a bitch!

Damn it, my wife says I have to come down stairs and do the dishes:PB|


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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I also think there is no sweet spot or stall point with the V2 because of the steep angle.



The angle is steep on the V series of suits because of the wing area distribution(the biggest difference between the SF family and the Vampire Family).

Any suit can be stalled. DOn't know about sweet spot on V2 but seems like Yuri's post suggests that he found it B|.

Kris.

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Very interesting Yuri. I have actually always noticed something similar when maxing out my S3 in the sky, and I thought it was just me. Is this observation of yours unique to the V2, or would you say it applies to other high-end suits (waiting for a joke about how my suit is not high-end)?



It applied for all suits i have flown so far, even more for Classic and Prodigy.

But screw the suits, freeclimbing an ice-covered vertical exposed wall to the exit point is where all the fun is! Can't believe i'm sitting here writing... was quite a day! ;)

bsbd!

Yuri.

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Thats something that needs to be discussed more
which is better - diving the suit for speed(sacrificing some of the vertical slowness) or trying to balance everything for slow vertical decent and good forward speed if the end result is we open at the same place at the same altitude, I just take longer to get there.



It all depends on available altitude and glide ratio. But usually if you dive and plane out you're fooling yourself when you think that you're "maxing out". The best distance (over the limited altitude) resulted from the dive-induced speed does not imply best L/D.
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iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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V-2 seems to be balanced significantly "nose-down" (at least, for my body). Combined with good glide angle due to good overall aerodynamics of the suit, this results in a rather small angle of attack, giving the suit its tremendous speed. However, the small angle of attack doesn't produce the best glide.

It's much like receiving a canopy from the factory with A-B lines 6" shorter than they should be. Effectively, you fly on double fronts without even pulling on them. Lots of speed, but not the best glide.



That is exactly what I feel when I fly the suit, Yuri.

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You can not just hold the grippers loosely like a S3/S but you have to really push them down and out a bit (for maximum performance not for flocking). This way you should also get a bit more headsup and flatten the glide.



That's not what Robi says or does. He told me to my face that he uses as little force as possible to just hold the wingtips "out", not "down". Forcing the grippers into position deforms the wing. That said, I have tried both ways in my Vampire. If I want to fly fast, I hold them loose. If I want max vertical range in a flock, I am pretty much gorrilla-gripping them. If I am doing the latter, my arms get smoked jumping the suit. It was the same in the V2, only more so in order to keep my fore/aft balance comfortable.

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Hi boys,
:)How to fly the suit is known in general for most of the suit and as well for V1 or V2. Small differences exist due the different body shapes or weight distribution.
In short, what apply to me, not necessarily apply to Chuck or Yuri or Kris. We are not rigid profiles nor we are the same body shape (thanks god) B|:P
Jumping the suit in skydiving environment is not the same as in BASE environment. Very often I noticed that skydivers got confused by feelings they had in the jumps. BASE environment ''helps'' in getting the better picture about distance flying because you know in few seconds how much you suck :)
Distance or ''parachuting'' down is different type of flying and flying technique is entirely different.

Stretching the wings on V2 or V1 when you want to fly distance ( best glide ) are totally wrong, this apply for ''parachuting'' down....
What I said to Chuck is true, The V2 fly the best when you think you are no hanging in the sky!!
''Hanging'' feeling happens very close to stall point and that is not even close to max glide nor max speed.

For better understanding I really advice ws flyers to read about the aerodynamics at PF web site / article section.

:)
Robert Pecnik
[email protected]
www.phoenix-fly.com

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From the pictures of Costyn I can see that I at least have to push the grippers more than I'm doing, thereby not deforming the wing but pushing it more onto/against the wind. otherwise the tip of the gripper points slightly upwards back which does distort the wing. I saw some pictures of Scaryperry where he really stretches the wing with the grippers which does deform the wing and doesn't seem good (although he does get nice glides with that).
Tristan
Will you answer "NO" to my next question?

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Perry also managed to destroy at least two Vampires. Possibly pulling out too much on his wings caused much of that stress on the suit. Who knows.

Whatever. At any rate, all of the three suits listed can be listed as "great" performance suits. There is no one "best suit" for everyone's flying style or body type.

Chuck

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