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SKYDIVE

FIREBIRD vs FIREBIRD R

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the only real difference is the embroidry... umm err i mean the mylar in the tail wing.

is it worth it? It's not going to make much if any difference to the casual flyer, but add a pain on needing to pack it gently, as not to bend/break the mylar.

so no, not worth the 100$

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

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is there a big difference in performance between the Firebird and the Firebird R ? ***

Yes, there is a noticeable performance increase in the Firebird-R. Mylar keeps the airfoil profile consistant and firm, which produces less vibrations, especially along the trailing edge. Mylar allows for a more precise airfoil that will hold the optimal shape in the sky, keeping it as distortion free as possible.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Since you are giving advice here, I guess you have tried both? Maybe you could elaborate a little on how they fly and the things you personally noticed?



Mylar is useless and a pain in the butt for flying out of the airplane.....much more useless on a suit that does not have the biggest wings.

Who cares is he has not flown both the suit...what he says is true.

Kris.

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I've had two suits with full mylar inserts, S3S and S6, and i can assure you, neither suit is a pain in the butt for flying out of the airplane.

I also find both suits to have a level of stability not found in the suits i have flown without it.

I have flown a Firebird R, but not a Firbird, and in my opinion its a great suit. It felt very stable and seemed to have a really good amount of range.

If you're still jumping at Headcorn, ask J to jump his, it should fit you :)
Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

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:ph34r:chuck - my bad, but that still doesn't negate what i said.


birdy - I own a firebird, but haven't flown the R, but have flown other suits with mylar in them. what i said for the casual flyer still holds true, expecially since there is not much problem tensioning either wing b/c of the shorter lengths (compared to a S6 or a V1, V2). This is most likely the guys first suit and it's easier to not worry about it (the mylar) in the plane or after a day of jumping. 99$ for the option is a bit steep IMO for a suit that doesn't really need it. 40-50$ maybe, we'll talk. It's not worth the added cost. For that same cost you can almost by a bigger suit which will have it stock.
Mylar is much more effective in a BASE environment and also has been discuessed exclusively in this forum this yr, just do a search.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

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The biggest difference I noticed is that, due to the mylar inserts, some verry weird and crooked (non symetrical) flying positions are possible in the suit, while still maintaining a good wingprofile. Even when your arms are doing everything to keep the wing from inflating correctly. Positions that will have the wings collaps (and send you spinning) in a suit that doesnt have them.
And it keeps the wings inflated during transitions from front to back, which actualy makes a, sort of, carving transition to backflying possible. Normaly (once you're more or less side-ways) the wings collaps for a second, and 'pop' to the other side, and inflate again.

But the mylar inserts do take some extra care. Just choose depending on the flying you plan to do...
If its just the extra performance you want (max-flight wise) one of the higer-perf. suits might also be a thing to concider ofcource..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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I have flown suits with out full rigid ribs “Skyflyer1, Slyflyer3, JII Wings, Classic, GTI, acro” Recently I bought a S6 and I can feel the difference, I don’t have to apply to much input to get the best performance out of the suit. The rigid ribs are also really helpful when it comes to back flying. In a suit with out rigid ribs you would have to apply to much input to get the suit flying at a decent fall rate and after a wile you would get tired and turn to regular flying.

In addition, in a BASE environment is really important to get inflation and wind shape ASAP this is one of the scenarios were rigid ribs come into play.

I can assure you that all the people that own a suit with rigid wings would agree on something. I won’t lie, packing and transporting the suit is a pain in the ass. But for me the pain is really worth.
Medusa

Get Killed or Die Trying!
Patent pending ATFK15456

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I can assure you that all the people that own a suit with rigid wings would agree on something. I won’t lie, packing and transporting the suit is a pain in the ass. But for me the pain is really worth.



I second that. Having flown both the S3 (without inserts) and the S3S (with inserts), I feel they give the wingsuit a more solid and stable feel during flight (that's my perception at any rate).

And yes, they are a pain in the ass when you have to stow it in your gearbag. You have to actually pack your wingsuit in a particular way as you would pack your chute in a particular way.

Cheers,

Costyn.
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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I actually have flown the R and liked it a'lot, but I have not tried the plain model. I was just curious if anybody did try both and could describe the difference felt in the air. That is what I think the guy wants to know. People who haven't any experience with both the Firebird versions, they might have an opinion for sure, but it is perhaps not really that helpful.

I came from the S3 to my current S3S and the difference was big - to the positive side ;), not only the first few sec's out the door as some suggest. I agree regarding the stashing/packing, that sucks, but thats the way it is.

edited to add: I think the "flight experience" comparison between the Firebird vs Firebird R is really interesting, as the mylar inserts is the single difference between the suits. The S3S was a major upgrade to the S3, and the inserts was just one of many changes

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As many people have said...folding the suits with Mylar inserts is a pain in the butt. Now imagine having to sit on the floor or an airplane at a bigway or even your home DZ....on an load that is tight on space.

Mylar will break or deform permanantly if enough pressure is applied. lets say a rib or two break...now what?

Macca...you are missing the point....it may help on big suits but small suits for flying out of the plane are best without mylar. The reward to hassle ratio is pretty small for medium sized suits IMO. Hypothetically, if I was offered mylar for free on my next Phantom purchase...I'd say no thanks....I'll take free gloves instead :ph34r:.

As you know I would have flown J's Firebird suit the last time we flew at Headcorn ...but its big for me just as its for you....coz we are the same size.

Kris.

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Now imagine having to sit on the floor or an airplane at a bigway or even your home DZ



Although I definately agree with the breaking-issue's, I cant say I really feel any huge difference in sitting in the plane in a suit with or without ribs.

And having been on the plane with 69 (hehe...he sayd 69..ehm..sorry) wingsuits, packed tight, from who a large margin had suits with mylar inserts, I didnt hear anyone complain about poking ribs..(usualy it was someones foot pushed hard into a place where a foot should NEVER go, or someones elbow breaking my leg)

The only thing I noticed is that a rib-less wing is easyer to pull away underneath the ass of the..person *removed nasty word*... sitting next to me, who sat down on top of it:P
But personal discomfort...no..I notice the ribs are there...but cant say they trouble me..

But some people seem to have big issue's with it...crying, pain, discomfort....seems to give them bad sleep and erectile problems as well...reminds me of the story of 'the princess and the pea' (PEA Macca..not PEE);)..

As for breaking, it really seems to matter which batch of mylar your suit has. Ive noticed that (depending on when your suit was made) the Mylar seems to vary a bit in thickness.

My S3S had had thinner material, which seems to bend easyer, and I put about 150 to 200 jumps on that one, without one rib breaking. And the suit Im currently flying (and older prototype) also has no issues. And that one has 400+ jumps it..

Some of the newer suits seem to have a thicker mylar, that is a bit easyer to damage (as it folds less easy).

But with all the horror-stories about 'packing a wingsuit'
I always fold it very carefully, and even THEN dont manage to spend more then one minute doing so.
If it takes you longer, then Id love to know how long it takes you to pack a parachute..;)
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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i must be honest - the first 3 weekends i unhooked my rig, folded the suit and kept it in a bag all nice and straight * after that it became too much of a hassle and i got lazy - i have left my suit attached to my rig for the last few months, when i leave the dz i put my rig in my boot last, obviously trying not to put anything heavy on the mylar but not too carefull really and all my ribs are still in one piece... lucky me

my 2c mylar provides alot of stability .... its worth it

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

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Although I definitely agree with the breaking-issue's, I cant say I really feel any huge difference in sitting in the plane in a suit with or without ribs.



ditto, but one do have to be very carefully - that makes all the difference. I think the mylar is pretty strong yet flexible. It is more likely the stitches mylar to nylon that may cause problems.

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And having been on the plane with 69 (hehe...he sayd 69..ehm..sorry) wingsuits, packed tight, ...



actually we where 70+ on those loads. We had to sit angled at 45 degrees very TIGHT.

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>:(YAY i get to play with fire.... now let's add some more gasoline. >:(>:(

you guys are all funny ..except for kris since he's actually reading what i wrote and he knows what i'm talking about.:)
1) word choice - "casual flyer"
2) it's his first suit
3) He's a big guy and will want another [bigger] suit at a later time.. may was well save some $ now.
4) we are talking about a smaller med sized suit. take your s3,s3s,s6, etc discussions elsewhere.
5) we are talking skydiving NOT BASE
6) This suit is made for backflying.. unlike the vent position on the other suits (v2 excluded) so of course the mylar will help greater in a non-backvented suit..
7) Mylar has been discussed and killed.


Q.E.D.


SKYDIVE - whatever suit you buy, don't worry i'll still fly with you B|.


Now i'm feeling like voodew's sigline and can understand why he is how he is now.. well except for the ugly...:D

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

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Can anyone comment on the suitability of Mylar ribs for new flyers? I've been under the impression that it was a bad idea, although that may only apply to pilots with only a few jumps.

I am still left with the question: why put Mylar in a Firebird? It seems a bit like adding aerofoil uprights onto an intermediate hang glider - it helps but there's other things you can do to make it fly much better that don't cost as much...
--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

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Can anyone comment on the suitability of Mylar ribs for new flyers?



oh oh, I can Rich!

I can't seem them being bad, but they are obivously not going to be effective or as effective as a good flyer flying with inserts..so it makes them a waste of $. And again, they will need to be kind to the mylar, stroke the mylar, kiss the mylar, make love to the mylar like those which mylar do now.


as to why mylar in the F-bird.. why not? I think it would become more suitable for BASE and maybe help for some of the transitions... and you'd get that added performance people are describing for skydiving too ;)

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

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In addition, in a BASE environment is really important to get inflation and wind shape ASAP this is one of the scenarios were rigid ribs come into play.



If the wind does not pressurize the wings the rigid ribs will not help. It is part technique and part inlet design and IMO partly due to a smaller fill volume on the smaller wings. I posted some pics of my exits(I am a pretty inexperienced wingsuit BASE pilot) in a phantom. The arm wings inflate fully between 2-2.5 secs. I doubt that on the smallish wings (probably same size as Phantom wings or a little smaller ) of a Firebird...the ribs will help that much on exit.

But that becomes a different issue. Because anyone using a Firebird R for BASE probably doesn't know what s/he is doing or knows exactly what s/he is doing ;).

Kris.

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