the 200 rule

[arai 0]

I'm just looking to get personal opinions on the 200 rule and what someone might be expected to have the experience to avoid at 200 in your own words.

I've probably read through this whole forum, and own Scotts wingsuit book, so I have seen a lot of threads on what wingsuit makes a good first one, I've read about what types of training to focus on prior to starting (ie symetrical pulls, tracking, belly skills, dive planning. stability etc etc) .

I've seen the back and forth arguments about how some people feel the newer entry suits (prodigy, impact etc) may or may not make entry into wingsuiting happen earlier than 200 jumps. While others (probably the majority) remain confident that it just makes the first jump easier, but that you should still be at the 200 mark before attempting.

I've heard of cases of newer jumpers starting earlier than 200 and being fine, and even seen some experienced birdflyers adding in with "yeah well she/he had their head on straight, so it wasnt a problem" while still returning to the popular 200 rule in later threads

I guess the point to the last few paragraphs is to say that I'm reasonably well informed into wingsuiting in general, and can even make educated guesses as to the reasons you would want to have 200 dives before starting, but I'm just curious to hear what each of you believes the 200 rule prepares divers for?

If you started off someone early what did you see in them that eased your nerves?

if you started early (or late for that matter) did you ever find yourself in the position of feeling like you'd wished you had more experience in a particular aspect of birdman flight, or skydiving in general? what areas?

Just bored on a thursday afternoon, watching all my birdman videos, so no need to point me to a search function, and if you feel that this topic has been covered to death in a more general sense then no problem, feel free to skip it.

blue skies

-arai-

[TALONSKY 0]

The 200 rule really is only if you are going to have a wingsuit instructor train you. If you plan on just buying a suit and going by yourself birdman recomends 500 jumps.
In my humble opinion, I really think you should be much closer to the 500 jump to start. What the experience brings is comfort in being in the air and dealling with the unexpected. Personally, I tell anyone interested in wingsuit flying this: It is the most fun I have ever had skydiving and I have been my most scared in the suit because when something goes wrong it can go wrong in a big way. There is nothing like your suit flying you to get your butt clinched so tight you would not be able to hammer a needle thru with a sludge hammer.
Kirk

[LukeH 0]

making a minimum of 200 jumps (in 18 months) should increase your general awareness to a reasonable level - perhaps suitable to consider jumping with a wingsuit.

wingsuit flying is a lot of fun, it looks (and can be) fairly easy when everything goes well. lots of things are easy when everything goes well.

what separates a jumper that is ready for wingsuit flight from one that is not is their ability to cope when things go wrong - without endangering themselves or others.

200 is not a magic number, a jumper with 201 jumps is not necessarily more suitable for wingsuit flight than one with 199 jumps. but as a general guide line i think 200 is reasonable for someone with their head screwed on. some people may need even more jumps. remember 200 is the minimum recommended.

if you figure you have 30+ years of skydiving ahead of you, what is the rush? (same thing applies to downsizing canopies)

what would you think if someone decided that they didn't need any skydiving training, they just forged their logbook and went and jumped with a friend.
well it's been done, and some people survived... doesn't make it smart.

[nathaniel 0]

I'd look for someone who

has good awareness of himself & jumping partners
has good awareness of the rest of the plane, jumprun & can spot edit: every other group in freefall reliably
can spot well
knows his / her own limitations as a skydiver
understands the risks
accepts the risks
knows what it takes to mitigate the risks
does what it takes to mitigate the risks
is calm
is willing to make a commitment
has done a fair amount of tracking and freeflying
has access to a beginner or intermediate suit and a docile canopy and otherwise suitable gear

Mostly it would come down to someone who I'm fully comfortable to jump with, and who has demonstrated a capacity and a sufficient interest. 200 jumps is a good minimum for the average jumper, but in fringe cases I don't think it'd be unreasonable for people to start a before then. Especially if the person has an exclusive interest in wingsuits--it does take several tens of jumps on a single suit before you'll get a good degree of control and loft. There's more a lot more to it than being the target on a "chase the low guy" dive.

It wouldn't be much under 200. Maybe 175. Much less would be pushing it.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[Zoter 0]

Quote

What the experience brings is comfort in being in the air and dealling with the unexpected

I can concur.....a couple of flights I have had a slight issue locating and grabbing my pud.....having a little bit more air experience /currency will save you an awful lot of drama and anxiety at this point, and give you a better chance of a positive outcome

[notsane 0]

I agree that the 200 jump guideline is generally a good idea ... in that someone needs to be comfortable in the air first. That's not so say that there are folks that are heads up much earlier(or later). I've trained folks with 200 jumps and watched the vast majority of them do great. I also trained folks with 1000+ jumps who struggled against the suit the entire way. Sometimes overcoming all that muscle memory can be difficult.

[Pendragon 1]

Actually it comes from the basic premise of all wingsuit flight - awareness of one's surroundings. A low jump # guy/gal is unlikely to have sufficient awareness of where they are over the ground to be able to navigate successfully. Wingsuits can cover a lot of distance horizontally and, typically, the jumper is getting out after tandems and AFF. Last thing they want is a wayward wingsuit pilot buzzing around in the wrong place - AFF students can occasionally panic and deploy unexpectedly high. You need to be heads-up enough in order to plan where you need to be. Also, what about (as here in the UK) airspace restrictions? I fly in some of the busiest airspace in the world near London - and there would be hell to pay if I got caught outside our 1.5nm radius. Similiarly, what about DZs with few/restricted "outs"? Again, it all comes back down to flying a good pattern.

Of course, more regular skydiving skills are important, and that is the other aspect or requiring a certain skill level. BTW - wingsuits serve to complicate things; recovery from instability, deployment, reserve drills. Best to have all those second nature before you make them more difficult!

BTW - I would take a 200 jump "wonder" with backflying skills, good recovery from instability and lots of tracking dives (and has a sensible attitude towards wingsuits...a real prerequisite for me!) over a 1,000 jump guy who's only ever done 4-way and taken 14 years to get there (just an example - no offence to RWers intended ) The former has useful transferable skills, the latter - whilst experienced - has not learnt that same breadth.

Richard

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[mccordia 73]

If someone doesnt have the patience, time and dedication to do a lousy 200 jumps before flying a wingsuit....what makes you think that person will have the dedication to learn to fly it safe and properly?

You can sugercoat it all you want...talk about 'being ahead of the curve' and all the crap people say about themselves when they have no clue what they are actually talking about with their low experience..

But if you want to be a skydiver (or basejumper) and learn to fly wingsuit...and just keep talking and talking about how hard you want it....then dont make such a point about aquiring some basic skills....

If someone doesnt want to jump..then he or she has no business being in a wingsuit IMnotsoHO

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[dragon2 0]

Couldn't agree more.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[pierre3636 0]

In South Africa the rule is actually 300 jumps in 24m with a instructor doing the full briefing or 500 jumps in total with no instructor. Waiting longer is a little better from an awarness point of view but i suppose if your mind is in the right place and you furfill the minimum requirement you should be able to join the flock. My opinion is that the best pre first WS jump training you can do is to do your briefed jump in a full track with practice touches and turns (avoiding the jump run obviously as far as possible).

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

[dragon2 0]

Quote

In Sout Africa the rule is actually 300 jumps in 24m with a instructor doing the full brieifing or 500 jumps in total with no instructor. Waiting longer is a little better from an awerness point of view but i suppose if your mind is in the right place and you furfill the minimum requirment you should be able to join the flock. My opinion is that the best pre first WS jump training you can do is to do your briefed jump in a full track with practise touches and turns (ovoiding the jump run obviously as far as possible).

We go one step farther than that; we have a few specific excercises we want a new wingsuit jumper to do takes a few jumps, you need to do these before your first flight. It's not mandatory in our country, but it is for 2 of our 4 wingsuit instructors Don't know how the other 2 prepare jumpers (Jarno?)

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[pierre3636 0]

The tracking exercise is like that, you dont have to do it but im trying to get the new instructors (like me too) to do that jump once before they actually do it in a suit...just for peace of mind... problem is though who covers the slot! i dont mind paying my own slot (looove tracking) but some instructors might not want to pay for their slot...

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

[dragon2 0]

What slot? We just let them do the excercises on their own. No need to watch them do it...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[pierre3636 0]

yeah true - id like to watch though, but ur right u dont HAVE 2.

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

[JohanW 0]

If you like to watch, you obviously pay your own slot.

On topic: I started freeflying somewhere after jump 300, wingsuiting somewhere after 500. It's all about being free in the air, having the attention span to spare to navigate, keep track of others and solve your own and other peoples' problems. I'm turning into one of those old farts that has learned too much patience. And I think that's a good thing.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[pierre3636 0]

yep i pay the slot !
On topic ~ you sound like my friend tonto !

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

[MarkM 0]

A lot of people I've talked to with wingsuits have gotten into a bad situation early on when still learning to fly. It's easy to get into an out of control situation when you're new. I think having 200 current jumps prior to that happening helps the person recover. Also wingsuiting can depend a lot more on basic skydiving skills like air awareness, ground orientation, and having already worked out good canopy deployment skills.

And I've seen people do some scary shit in prodigies too. If you're not ready for a confining wingsuit like a classic or GTI, you're not ready to jump with a prodigy just because it "feels" less confining and safer. It can still send you tumbling out of control on your back when it's time to pull.