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Costyn

Trackingderby.com wingsuit section

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This is a response to your post in the Foretrex201 thread in an attempt to keep from hijacking that threads topic.

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Nice to see you into it now. The race is made for jumps around 13,5. Sorry for the one that don't have it, they are less DZ not going there. With all the Free Fly and RW population, most DZ spots hight. some times higher, that's why we have also a maximum vertical distance two. The safety limit is not far from "1000" meters, but we will keep it un-mentioned to make sure peoles are not playing with the limit. Pull when it is pull time. 2 minutes from 13,5 is challenging for beginers, but they won't stay beginers so long trying to have an efficient flight :) But again let's see what people performs.... For sure the group dives format need to be less than 2 minutes free fall time http://www.trackingderby.com/group.php





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Nice to see you into it now



Into what? I don't understand that statement.


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The race is made for jumps around 13,5



And thats what the original poster brought up, as that altitude, for most DZs, especially smaller ones, is not feasible, 12.5 is the industry "norm" for a majority of DZs. By setting 13.5 as the competition altitude you are limiting your number of competitors drastically and you're going to have to have special jump runs set up with the DZ when you run competitions, at least here in the USA and I'd imagine other places as well.

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The safety limit is not far from "1000" meters, but we will keep it un-mentioned to make sure peoles are not playing with the limit.



Normaly, when it comes to competitions, the rules are made available to the competitors. By not telling people what the safety limit is, people WILL involuntarily break it.I see no reason to keep something called a "safety" measure secret from the competitors.

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Pull when it is pull time



And what altitude is that? Wing suits usually pull higher than skydivers and some Wingsuit pilots also take it pretty low. So your pull time could differ greatly from what everyone else in the world does. If you really want to make it a fair competiton for everyone, you need to adjust the exit altitude and post the rules( safety limit/max vertical decent, etc) otherwise its just a Russian roullette for the competitors.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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I don't see any Russian roulette there.



Let me see if I understand you correctly here. You are saying that you don't see anything wrong with the wingsuit competiton based on what the original poster mentioned or with any of the other limiting factors I mentioned?
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Do you like 2 miniutes?

2 minutes is LONG for me :| My best times till now are around 2'20'' but I have to fly again now I did some quite serious workout..

Will do a couple of tries next week in Empuriabrava
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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We want a race that can fit from 13,5 K exit in respect with the common sence of deployment altitude.



Claude, 4000m is about 13Kf and as said by Lou, most of the DZ is US go to 12.5K (3800m).
In Finland, where Cessna is the most common plane, we exit from 9.8K to 13.5K

How about starting counting the points after 15s and for 1min flight. It would allow people to jump from different altitudes and would allow everybody to participate. Best ones could even jump from 7K with a safe margin and still be part of the game :)

Going for longuer flight times might make it more like a physical (body) contest than a technical one.

Jul.
JFK #1013
PM Me
No Adrenalin.... No Fun!
"Minds are like parachutes the

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How about starting counting the points after 15s and for 1min flight. It would allow people to jump from different altitudes and would allow everybody to participate. Best ones could even jump from 7K with a safe margin and still be part of the game :)

Going for longuer flight times might make it more like a physical (body) contest than a technical one.

Jul.



Although 120 seconds is a challenge for me too from 12000 feet, I would agree with Claude that having significantly less seconds measured will make it easier for those leaving the plane at 13.5.

Consider: 1 person leaves the plane at 13,5 and does a steep dive for 75 seconds and deploys at 3000ft. The steep dive gives him a lot of downward speed and forward speed, covering a lot of ground.

A second person, leaves the plane at 9000 feet and does a 75 second flight, deploying at 3000 ft. This person will have covered a lot less ground and thus is still at a disadvantage.

A solution to this, as was suggested by Scott, is to have an altitude range between where you measure the ground covered, much like in speed-skyidiving, where speed is measured between 9000 and 6000 feet (if I remember right). The problem with this, according to Claude is that the elevation data provided by the GPS unit is not accurate enough.

So, this is problem... Decreasing the number of seconds does not level the playing field per se.

Cheers,

Costyn.
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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How about starting counting the points after 15s and for 1min flight. It would allow people to jump from different altitudes and would allow everybody to participate.

it would also allow people with other suits (access, prodigy, track suits etc) to take part in the contest, each at its level. IMHO 1min is short... 15+75sec would be more challenging, or having separate classe, 15+60, 15+75, 15+90 and 15+105 sec...

The concept was too easy, let's complicate it :D
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Although 120 seconds is a challenge for me too from 12000 feet, I would agree with Claude that having significantly less seconds measured will make it easier for those leaving the plane at 13.5.



Got your point :)

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The problem with this, according to Claude is that the elevation data provided by the GPS unit is not accurate enough.



GPS doesn't provide such a good static "elevation", however it should provide enough "height" measurement to define a vertical window where the points could be counted.

Jul.
JFK #1013
PM Me
No Adrenalin.... No Fun!
"Minds are like parachutes the

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The problem with this, according to Claude is that the elevation data provided by the GPS unit is not accurate enough.




I disagree with this part. Myself and Vidiot have both said that the elevation data gathered is quite accurate based on actual skydives. The addition of a Neptune to compliment the GPS can also be downloaded and the elevation data used to confirm the GPS data if there is an anomoly that requires it.

No matter what one does, it will ultimately always be a glide ratio race when going for distance no matter what you adjust the time to. Its the Pilot who is going to make the difference in the end. I think putting any time limit on a wingsuit is just limiting the competition for both the low and high end experince pilots. Wingsuits are a different animal from normal tracking dives and have different requirements that need to be addressed if you want to create a fair competition for everyone.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Claude, how about allowing WS fliers to put their data on your website without scoring them.
You could do that for few months and that would provide various types of flights to be able to find the right idea to score the flights?
Possibility to upload data from a digital altimeter would also allow to study the accuracy of the GPS measurements.

Lou, regarding your comparisons with Vidiot on the GPS accuracy, what kind of GPS equipment were you using?
I'm asking that because nowadays more and more GPS systems include a pressure sensor to compensate the GPS regarding altitudes and heights.

Jul.
JFK #1013
PM Me
No Adrenalin.... No Fun!
"Minds are like parachutes the

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I disagree with this part. Myself and Vidiot have both said that the elevation data gathered is quite accurate based on actual skydives. The addition of a Neptune to compliment the GPS can also be downloaded and the elevation data used to confirm the GPS data if there is an anomoly that requires it.



Agreed, to summarize I was just repeating what Claude had said about GPS elevation data. Sorry I guess I should've included you guy's statements about this in my summary. :)
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No matter what one does, it will ultimately always be a glide ratio race when going for distance no matter what you adjust the time to. Its the Pilot who is going to make the difference in the end. I think putting any time limit on a wingsuit is just limiting the competition for both the low and high end experince pilots. Wingsuits are a different animal from normal tracking dives and have different requirements that need to be addressed if you want to create a fair competition for everyone.



So do you think it would be more fair if glide ratio was measured and the score based on glide ratio in a particular altitude range?

Of course there is still the problem with tail wind, but like Claude said you should really only compare people that jump at the same DZ events, so people jump in the same circumstances.
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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I was just repeating what Claude had said about GPS elevation data.



Understood, I was just re-itterating my position on that subject.;)

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Lou, regarding your comparisons with Vidiot on the GPS accuracy, what kind of GPS equipment were you using?



Personaly, I have used several different Garmin models as well as other brands. I have almost 50+ pages of GPS info in my book coveing this topic. However, I have used the Foretrex 201, GPS V. eTrex vista and the GPSMAP 60C extensively since I own these models.


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So do you think it would be more fair if glide ratio was measured and the score based on glide ratio in a particular altitude range?



IMO, no. It would be difficult to apply a scoring system to GR readouts as they change a good deal from moment to moment and would have to be averaged. IMO, if its a race for distance, then the scoring should be based on how far one went from the "start" to the "finish" The greater overall distance between the 2 points is the winner. No time limit, allow the pilot to decide how to fly from the start until the finish since some people can actualy go long(time) and far(distance) and well exceed a time limit.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Normaly, when it comes to competitions, the rules are made available to the competitors. By not telling people what the safety limit is, people WILL involuntarily break it.I see no reason to keep something called a "safety" measure secret from the competitors.

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Pull when it is pull time



And what altitude is that? Wing suits usually pull higher than skydivers and some Wingsuit pilots also take it pretty low. So your pull time could differ greatly from what everyone else in the world does. If you really want to make it a fair competiton for everyone, you need to adjust the exit altitude and post the rules( safety limit/max vertical decent, etc) otherwise its just a Russian roullette for the competitors.



Claude, is there actually a hard dekc? If so, it is set pretty low. I was open kinda low last weekend (think I was in the saddle around 1800), as can be seen in this track, but my track was still accepted for uploading to TrackingDerby?

Cheers,

Costyn.
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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Costyn, sorry i was late to answer, a baby just arrived at home:)

On your track, you can see that the distance graph don't stop at the safety altitude thresold, but you score is stoped at 1000m. We will add few updates in the presentation of the parameters as the distance from exit to 15 second, and the distance from race end until opening. And pretty sure that we will reduce the timing of the race to 15s/90s.
Thank's for your answers
Claude

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Costyn, sorry i was late to answer, a baby just arrived at home:)

On your track, you can see that the distance graph don't stop at the safety altitude thresold, but you score is stoped at 1000m. We will add few updates in the presentation of the parameters as the distance from exit to 15 second, and the distance from race end until opening. And pretty sure that we will reduce the timing of the race to 15s/90s.
Thank's for your answers
Claude



Hi Claude,

Congrats on your baby! The mother and child are doing ok?

Ah, ok. Yes, I see now that it stopped counting the distance at around 90 seconds. I didn't look at it that closely, I assumed my track would be disqualified, but this works too.

Cheers,

Costyn.
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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As some people will probably have noticed, the Wingsuit ranking is now also available on TrackingDerby.com. And Claude did change the time to 90 seconds, making it more accessible. A side effect is of course that someone getting more altitude can now dive head-low for 90 seconds and probably cover more distance, but we've discussed this topic to death already. :)
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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Big cheerio from Empuria..doing some pretty sweet Impact flocking here..



Pretty sweet eh;) Tell Jari to check his e-mail and all of you try not to hurt your faces from all that grinning I know your doing. Oh yeah, don't forget the video/pictures;)
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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A side effect is of course that someone getting more altitude can now dive head-low for 90 seconds and probably cover more distance,



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but we've discussed this topic to death already.



....but I am unable to leave it alone.

The way I see it a dive means more vertical speed than horizontal which translates to the person that dives shall not win TrackingDerby.

Dive means headlow but headlow does not mean dive.

How about diving in the initial few secs (< 15) and using that speed by planing out the dive to start off the 90 sec segment with a speed advantage....VKB style.

Congrats on first place.

Kris.

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....but I am unable to leave it alone.



Me neither. ;)

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The way I see it a dive means more vertical speed than horizontal which translates to the person that dives shall not win TrackingDerby.



More vertical speed than horizontal speed (relative) is irrelevant, since vertical speed does not play into the contest, only distance covered and time (horizontal speed, essentially). So the highest horizontal speed (absolute, not relative) wins.

The highest horizontal speed does not come at best glide angle, or best hang time. It comes in steeper flight angle than either of those (how steep, or whether or not it's a "dive", I will stay away from). As you pointed out, the vertical speed may be higher than the horizontal speed (glide < 1:1).

But as Costyn pointed out, if you are jumping from high enough that you can afford a large vertical speed (i.e. if you start off high enough) and still achieve 90 seconds freefall, you will benefit in terms of horizontal speed and ultimately distance covered.

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How about diving in the initial few secs (< 15) and using that speed by planing out the dive to start off the 90 sec segment with a speed advantage....VKB style.



"Planing out" does not increase the horizontal speed. It only decreases the vertical. When you flare your canopy to land it does not boost forward, it actually slows down gradually. Why plane out if vertical speed has no bearing on the contest?
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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"Planing out" does not increase the horizontal speed. It only decreases the vertical. When you flare your canopy to land it does not boost forward, it actually slows down gradually. Why plane out if vertical speed has no bearing on the contest?



You misunderstand Kris' point. Think of a 270 swoop approach, that sure as hell boosts your horizontal speed during plane out;).

What I find very interesting is that the current tracking record (45sec) is 2.2miles and the current WS record (90sec) is only 2.8miles. Now it might just have been howling uppers when the track record was set but I think it would be interesting to see an experienced bird go for absolute max velocity over the same 45sec as a tracker and see how far they go.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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You misunderstand Kris' point. Think of a 270 swoop approach, that sure as hell boosts your horizontal speed during plane out;).



You are right, the 270 approach does increase horizontal speed. But planing out does not.

You misunderstand my point. There is a certain point in that 270 degree dive when forward speed is at a maximum (before plane-out). But vertical speed is also very high. Planing out is done to prevent yourself from bouncing. It does NOT increase your horizontal speed further (it may appear to, but this is only a visual effect - the same reason you feel faster in a wingsuit when you buzz a cloud or canopy). It actually decreases it a little bit, but at the advantage of decreasing your vertical speed hugely and saving your life.

While flying a wingsuit for maximum forward speed miles above the surface of the earth, you do not need to flare out and prevent from bouncing. You can remain in the "dive" (steep glide rate) for as long as you need, and maintain a maximum forward speed.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Planing out is done to prevent yourself from bouncing. It does NOT increase your horizontal speed further (it may appear to, but this is only a visual effect



This may be where the confusion is, what I (and i think kris) mean by planing out is not trying to get a completely horizontal vector, just a more horizontal one. A fully vertical dive would allow you to get the most energy into the system, you then need to plane out to some extent (though not completely) to get the highest horizontal speed. Something like this

| <--Dive
|
|
|
| <--max kinetic energy
\ <--plane out
\
\
\
\ <--max horizontal speed:D

Well thats a fecking appalling diagram but hopefully you can see what I mean.

Hmm, but now I've just noticed this
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You can remain in the "dive" (steep glide rate) for as long as you need, and maintain a maximum forward speed.



I'm still going to disagree with this, I think a plane out from a very high speed dive will result in (temporary) horizontal speeds greater than those that can be sustained in a less steep dive.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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