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moonglo

No Wingsuits Allowed

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Jenn,

I'm just curious whether your S&TA person understands that exiting 30 seconds after the tandems doesn't increase the safety factor. If you get out right after them or wait 30 seconds they are still the same size target down below. If the intent is to protect tandems from wingsuiters I can think of several more effective ways to do it. How about "Stay away from the f'ing tandems or be grounded" ? Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

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If wingsuit exits before the tandems and are flying their pattern how is a tandem going to pass you in freefall ? Even under canopy the tandems are so far away. The only issue would possibly be on landing. A little traffic is just skydiving and give ROW to Tandems.

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It sounds like the new policy is not all that well thought out--separation is entirely a matter of choice when a wingsuit is involved--but the consequences are easy to bear.

Seems like enough of a compromise that with due confidence-building over time the issue will probably go away on its own.
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

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If wingsuit exits before the tandems and are flying their pattern how is a tandem going to pass you in freefall ? Even under canopy the tandems are so far away. The only issue would possibly be on landing. A little traffic is just skydiving and give ROW to Tandems.



But what if the wingsuits are not following their pattern? What if the pattern was all messed up after a tumble during exit (people losing their orientation) or a wingsuiter with low experience making a mistake or someone unfamiliar with the area gets lost.

All these things can happen, and in these cases, tandems could be passing by/through wingsuiters. I don't see any problem with the wingsuiters getting out last and waiting a good while; besides its more fun, flying mostly straight back, instead of a pattern.

Cheers
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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I don't see any problem with the wingsuiters getting out last and waiting a good while; besides its more fun, flying mostly straight back, instead of a pattern.


With my limited experience: flying a pattern is safer. I can adjust my pattern to make sure to get back and get enough separation from others.

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It has been my experience that most DZs prefer to put wingsuits out last and what I recommend to DZOs/DZMs/S&TAs who have asked me. To put them out before tandems could potentially put them over top of or too close to the DZ which could cause them to fly an erractic flight plan/pattern and does not give even a beginner, suffcient space to fly in.This could then cause traffic issues as the wingsuit would definately be in the same airspace as those either in freefall or under canopy flying back to the DZ.

This is especially true of beginners or First Flight students who can sometimes fall almost as fast as normal skydivers or have issues with flying a correct pattern because they are disoriented. By putting wingsuits out last,tandem masters don't have to worry about landing out(because the WS took too long in the door) or falling through wingsuiters because they decided to do a go around and are now above the wingsuits.Putting wingsuits out last helps to further mitigate these types of issues and makes it safer for everyone on the load without putting a strain on DZ operations.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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The S&TA understands we have been doing our best to keep our distance, and problems in the past with wingsuit students being too close to tandem canopies have been caused by the pilot forcing us to exit with NO separation after the tandems. This is the easy solution, giving us the option to take a long delay, get a crosswind jumprun for a big group, or get a downwind jumprun (offset form the first) for crosscountry wingsuiting.

The exit separation minimum was put in to appease the tandem masters and video guys who think we flail around out of control then buzz every open canopy above 1500'. Unfortunately, those few TM's and vidiots who think this are not willing to talk with me for 5 minutes or see some wingsuit video or hear about how wingsuits really work. :S>:(

The "stay away from tandems and students or be grounded" rule has always been in effect but the S&TA said he doesn't hear about potential incidents until 4 or 5 weeks after it happened, at which point its impossible to identify who was wearing the orange suit on that load. Obviously this puts a strain on tandem/wingsuit relations, but if they're not willing to communicate there's not much more I can do.

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30 seconds seems like the perfect amount of time for you to be able to buzz the tandems.. hehehe I don't buzz unless I get the ok first....

I think that as long as you follow a set pattern you can get out right after the tandems or wait a minute or more... you'll still get back...
Following a pattern really is not that hard!

I'm half retarded and manage to do it every time..

Getting out before the tandems does NOT seem like a smart idea either... from my little knowledge it makes sense to either go first or last... but the time seperation is really irrelevant if you follow the dive plan. The different speeds both vertical and horizontal should allow us all to share the sky safely.
HISPA 72 ----- "Muff Brother" 3733

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or wait a minute or more... you'll still get back...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that if you plan to do that...you better plan on a very long walk back to the DZ.



Myself and Professor very often take at least a 2 minute delay or about 4.5 miles from the freefallers spot and have not yet had to walk, normally we have to fly an arced pattern to keep from over shooting the opening spot-- if you can't make it from a 2 miles you need to practice


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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V~
We aren't talking people with yours nor the proffs experience here.
I would expect you to make it back.
Now as I understood it...he said wait another minute (hummm) which means the plane is still flying. Is it any wonder that throughout the industry DZOs are saying that wingsuits take the most planning and cost more too?
Just something for folks to think about.;)
As far as me needing to practice..LOL you ain't just a whistlin' dixie.








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Is it any wonder that throughout the industry DZOs are saying that wingsuits take the most planning and cost more too?



I don't see why they should. Wingsuits don't ever need a go around because of a bad spot. If 20% of a load is wingsuits, that means 100% of the "good" spot can go towards the remaining 80% of the plane load. If anything wingsuits should save a DZO money due to less fuel spent on go arounds.

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I don't see why they should. Wingsuits don't ever need a go around because of a bad spot. If 20% of a load is wingsuits, that means 100% of the "good" spot can go towards the remaining 80% of the plane load. If anything wingsuits should save a DZO money due to less fuel spent on go arounds.



Oh you're prolly right Mark..I don't know much about any of that stuff anyway.:)








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I love it when people say things like "don't ever need a go around because of a bad spot"! I put it right up there with hold my beer and watch this!



I am not sure of your wingsuit experience but under any normal load there is no reason for a go around unless there is traffic below which is not at all what is being discussed.


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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Is it any wonder that throughout the industry DZOs are saying that wingsuits take the most planning and cost more too?



Having a few unpaid slots for load organizers costs too, but somehow at some DZs their value is recouped in the attraction of more business.

The same could be said of a tourist tandem passenger seeing a wingsuit flyby by a few thousand feet away while under canopy. I've seen a few glamour shots like this in DZ office photographs but to see it in person is quite the sell.

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I love it when people say things like "don't ever need a go around because of a bad spot"! I put it right up there with hold my beer and watch this!:P



Hey, if Birdman would've added the cup holder to my wingsuit like I had asked, I wouldn't have to ask you to hold my beer.

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