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moonglo

No Wingsuits Allowed

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...at Skydive Houston in Waller, TX if there are any Tandems on the load.

I found out about this yesterday at the 10 minute call for load 1 as I was gearing up for a wingsuit solo. I was told by the manager (and pilot), Virgilio, that (at least) one of the Tandem Masters complained and that my only options were to wingsuit on loads without tandems or to get out low. I checked with manifest and there were tandems on every load they were manifesting for. So we packed our gear and went to Spaceland and jumped.

I have no problems with getting out low (5K to 7K), assuming the pilot is letting me out low enough or taking enough time to get to altitude to keep me safe from freefallers, and assuming I'm getting a discount on my lift ticket for doing so, but I don't think that that's a safe option for first flight students (waving off at 5K or just below).

A bit of history: I did AFF in Waller in January 2002, and it has been my home ever since. I started packing there in spring of 2004, worked weekday manifest for about a year (until I was asked to leave by the same manager), started flying wingsuits there in August of 2004 (not the first one to do so), and I'm the only Wingsuit Instructor in Houston. I have brought out a few tandems and students, and many many fun jumpers from other Houston DZs who were interested in wingsuiting. I was asked to give a short presentation on safety day about wingsuits and how we affect non-wingsuit jumpers, i.e. our flight plan, traffic avoidance, and canopy stuff. Unfortunately I was cut from safety day for "time constraints" and after 2 hours of mostly informative presentations safety day was over and we played with the kites since it was too windy/cloudy to jump.

We have had a few minor problems with wingsuits at SDH in the past. There was one incident a year ago where a visiting wingsuit pilot pulled at 2K' and had line twists, and was in traffic with an AFF student. We discussed this and the solution was a go-around of at least 180 after the last tandems got out to give extra separation, and one of the S&TAs asked if we would open at 3K' to keep us a bit further from traffic (not a problem since most of us are comfortable pulling at 3.5K or above). Lately I've been denied this extra go-around when I asked for it (most recently last weekend with a first flight student). There were a few other times TM's complained, but since I usually heard about it a weekend after it happened, we were never able to figure out who the offender was or how close they actually were or what we could do to make everyone happy. One TM/S&TA suggested that wingsuits should get out after freefallers but before tandems.:SFor the most part we are very conservative and will break our flock extra high to avoid being anywhere near any open canopy. There were only 2 wingsuit loads this year I was not on.

Anyways this is getting long, so I'll just say my apologies to those I jumped with and packed for and drink beer with at SDH for my quick departure yesterday, I will really miss the jumpers there! For those of you who fly wingsuits or want to learn, let me know which of Aggieland or Spaceland you prefer (or I can recommend two great instructors I'll be visiting at SanMarcos) and we'll work out a nomad schedule or something! Walt-does this make it easier for you to finally finish the course and fly?:P

I look forward to being able to return to Skydive Houston someday and make a wingsuit jump in the same conservative manner I've been doing for the last year and a half.

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First of all, it saddens me that you have essentially been forced out of your home DZ. You are a positive, fun person who will make *any* DZ a better place. I have no doubt that you will be sorely missed by the jumpers of Skydive Houston.

On the other hand, I can't help but feel really excited for me and the people at Skydive Spaceland. I don't mean to minimize your loss, but SDH's loss is Spaceland's (and my) gain, and for purely selfish reasons, I'm actually pretty damn happy that you'll be going to Spaceland!

I hadn't contacted you about it, but I have been mulling over the idea of trying to pull you away from SDH for a day and getting you down to Spaceland so I could spend a day hogging all your time and attention to get some wingsuit instruction. This seems almost like an omen from God!!!!

I would like to openly thank the management of Skydive Houston. I don't know why you did it, but I'm not about to question what surely is a wonderful thing you have done for Skydive Spaceland and the jumpers there!!!!:)
Spaceland rocks!!!! SDH is a nice place with wonderful people, and if you can actually get manifested, it's a nice place to jump. Spaceland, though, has awesome facilities, wonderful people, and if you want to jump, you can get manifested quite easily.

I have a couple of other DZs to visit in the near future, but you can bet that I will be back home to Spaceland soon, and when I see you there I'm going to give you a really big hug and ask for the privilege of sharing some air with you.:)
Walt

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On one occasion I had the manifest staff at Skydive Chicago ask me not to jump my wingsuit due to "air traffic control will be sending planes this way all day". It struck me that the people who made this request of me were more or less incompetent, and that trying to reason with them would be an exercise in wasted breath. So I packed up my gear and went back to Hinckley. Both DZ's are close enough to Chicago's major airports that they deal with commercial overflights on a regular basis--if anything Hinckley is 20 or 30 mi closer...

I've been back to SDC since, and I've flown wingsuits without any more trouble from the staff.

Give the folks at Houston a few weeks to think through their situation & whether it's worth losing customers and friends ... If they decide it is then you should feel no shame in obliging them :)
Their actions speak for themselves...
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

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Give the folks at Houston a few weeks to think through their situation & whether it's worth losing customers and friends ... If they decide it is then you should feel no shame in obliging them :)
Their actions speak for themselves...



Hey, take that back!!!!

We *want* Jenn and Luminous and everyone else who jumps at SDH to come on down to Spaceland!!!!!

Nothing against Skydive Houston, we just like their jumpers a whole lot!:)
Walt

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This might be directly related to people doing this without telling, or picking out the wrong canopy?



Apparently that's what the TM's are complaining of, but I've never seen any intentional tandem swooping, nor have I been a part of it, nor have I been informed it was going on at the time it happened. I do know most of the jumpers I've flocked with in Waller will break early and deploy high rather than risk getting another "stay away from tandems" lecture from the manager, and we don't want to be that close to any canopy with a student holding the steering toggles either!

CRW dogs with a flight plan are fun though!:)

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I do have to agree with Jenn -- one weekend while at Waller for a wingsuiting good time we were scorned for being within -- I shit you not --- 1/4 mile of the tandems, keep in mind there were RW and Freefliers closer than us but the 'old' tandem masters were scared by us.

So I guess we no longer have to have a Waller Wingsuit Weekend ---- due to sheer wingsuit flyers per DZ it has been moved to Skydive San Marcos!!!!!
We will start to put something together after the Zhills event.
We have zero problems with wingsuiters at SSM and there are a few tandem masters that ask certain wingsuit pilots to seek them out on special occasions. Normally at SSM the tandems exit lower than the RW/Coach/AFF and Freefliers by a few thousand feet, which puts them on the ground / repacked / switched rigs / and with a new student when the plane hits the ground


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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So why not get out FIRST like at the WFFC?



That option was not given to me, though I would have the same concerns about first flight students getting off course and flying up jump run.

The load was on a 10 minute call and I was starting to gear up, the manager/pilot had manifest remove me from the load, THEN he came to tell me what was going on. My options were to get out low or get on loads without tandems. Apparently there was a staff meeting that morning that no one informed me (or Luminous) of, and this was discussed.....

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Staff meeting ??

1 - AFF/Tandom/S&TA
1 - AFF/S&TA
2 - Tandom/Video
1 - DZM

This is the staff present when Jenn & I arrived. My best guess is that this rule was arrived at by the DZM and the AFF/Tandom/S&TA to which rules do not apply.

FUCK EM!

Cheers.
Larry
'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

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So why not get out FIRST like at the WFFC?



That would not fix this situation. The only reason we get out first at WFFC is due to there being 2 parallel lines of flight(jump runs) with aircraft spaced approx. 2 minutes behind one another. Getting out first ensures that we don't have skydivers from the trailing plane raining down on us while in flight or under canopy.

If WS are 1/4 mile away from the tandems on opening and tandem masters are still complaining then there are serious trust issues there.This situation unfortunately, sounds like either one or two bad apples possibly has spolied it for the rest by their actions in the sky or on the ground. Jen, your best bet is to try and explain this to the S&TA and work things out so there is an understanding on both sides. Leaving is an option but its not the best one IMO. Education of fellow wingsuiters and a willingness to work with DZSOs/S&TAs in understanding the Wingsuit is the best long term investment one can make. If you need any help or have any questions feel free to PM me.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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If WS are 1/4 mile away from the tandems on opening and tandem masters are still complaining then there are serious trust issues there.This situation unfortunately, sounds like either one or two bad apples possibly has spolied it for the rest by their actions in the sky or on the ground. Jen, your best bet is to try and explain this to the S&TA and work things out so there is an understanding on both sides.



The "bad apples" were the ones who pushed the limits at least a year before I started wingsuiting, those guys haven't been seen at this DZ in quite a while. They were known for such things pulling at 800' and using intoxicating substances during jump times.

At SDH there are 3 S&TAs; the best safety enforcer is an AFF Instructor and has been an S&TA for years but is not there much due to work, the second one is an AFF/TM and hasn't been around much lately since a disagreement with the manager about his paycheck, and the third and newest one is an AFF/TM and is the one who is always there and was doing the majority of the complaining and suggesting bad exit orders and swooping across the pattern on most loads....

I've always been very clear with wingsuit students and those who visit that this is a very conservative dz and they don't want to see us in "their air", and from what I've seen we have always given them way more than enough room. Unfortunately, until they are willing to listen to my concerns or talk to me about the situations as they occur, there's not much I can do but leave and encourage others to do the same:(.

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the third and newest one is an AFF/TM and is the one who is always there and was doing the majority of the complaining and suggesting bad exit orders and swooping across the pattern on most loads....



I assume this is the individual with whom you have tried to explain the flight plan to? Feel free to PM me if you want to get into details.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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the third and newest one is an AFF/TM and is the one who is always there and was doing the majority of the complaining and suggesting bad exit orders and swooping across the pattern on most loads....



I assume this is the individual with whom you have tried to explain the flight plan to? Feel free to PM me if you want to get into details.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Remnds me of an instructor who used to work at Pitt Meadows. We fired him because he routinely set a bad example for landing patterns.

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the second one is an AFF/TM and hasn't been around much lately since a disagreement with the manager about his paycheck,



That must be Spicolli (Kyle) as he now jumps with us at SSM --- he doesn't seem to have a problem with the wingsuit flights or at least he has not mentioned it.


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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---- due to sheer wingsuit flyers per DZ it has been moved to Skydive San Marcos!!!!!



Give it time. I have a feeling with Jenn out at Spaceland you will have more birdies joining your flock...


Jenn..when can I meet ya out there? ;):)

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That must be Spicolli (Kyle) as he now jumps with us at SSM --- he doesn't seem to have a problem with the wingsuit flights or at least he has not mentioned it.


Yep, just looked at the SDH staff website and saw he was gone, as were Larry and I and a few others. I don't think he ever had a problem with wingsuits when I've jumped on loads with him. It'll be good to see him and all the ex-SDH folk again. :)

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Jenn..when can I meet ya out there?


I'm going to Flock-n-Dock this weekend at Z-hills. I'm not sure where we'll be after that, but I'd like to visit all the local DZs I haven't been to in the last 6 months or more. I get my wisdom teeth yanked out April 28 and will be grounded for at least 2 weeks after that.:SB|

Anyone who would like to meet me at a certain Houston area DZ on a certain weekend can contact me here or e-mail me at JennRalston [AT] Juno [DOT] com and I'll try to work out a schedule, at least til I figure out where my new home will be.

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Situations like this were brought up here :
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2028087#2028087

It only takes ONE attitude to ruin it for everyone.

Its a shame that the DZ felt the need to take it this far. But I am willing to bet that they had their reasons.

A perfect example of what I am talking about:

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Yeah! We come to the final agreement on this highly entertaining topic. It is fear after all.

Let's happily announce the conclusion: "Do not scare the cones!"



Attitudes like that might be why the DZ made that move. If a guy does something that he does not see as dangerous, but others do. And he will not listen and instead ignores them and calls them stupid.....Well its just an example, but is it possible that something like this happend at your DZ?

A quote of mine that seems to be coming true:

"When push comes to shove...Do you think the DZ would rather have a few happy WS folks and fly a Cessna, or a bunch of happy other jumpers that fill an Otter?"

The DZO might be tired of trying to get a few WS folks to play nice. I can't think of many DZO's that would really try to hamper a specific type of skydive unless they have tried every other option first.

Is it possible that one in your group is being a pain without you knowing?

Or is it possible that there have been incidents that you were aware of, but didn't seem to be a big deal then to you, but others might have seen an issue?

Tandems and students will win ANY argument of who gets on the plane.

But there is hope. Maybe you can talk to the DZO with *your* ears open as well. Let them say what they see the problem is, and FIX IT. Not just give lip service to it.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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The facts last year 98 load organizer slots for Jenn Ralston (wingsuit jumps) SDH help and encourage all wingsuit fliers. I give you multiple options no one was accepted, 4 diferent instructors and video complain about wingsuit fliers flying to close. the instructor and friend is not jumping here for personal problems not money problems and the staff meeting was a real one (not luminus staff meetings and you know what i mean) this are the facts.
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The facts last year 98 load organizer slots for Jenn Ralston (wingsuit jumps) SDH help and encourage all wingsuit fliers. I give you multiple options no one was accepted, 4 diferent instructors and video complain about wingsuit fliers flying to close....the staff meeting was a real one...



Wow, I didn't realize I made that many wingsuit student/coaching jumps! That's Great! :)
You did give me several options, which I listed above. I'm not willing to compromise on the safety of my students when jumps include them, and I'm not going to hang around all day for hop&pops when I'm uncurrent and plan to do bigways next weekend.

I was only ever told of two of those complaints; the first with Elio and a tandem, and the second with Troy shooting video, both about a year ago. Neither the wingsuit pilot nor Troy was close enough to captured the other on their videos, but we tried to fix it anyways. The first time we fixed our flight pattern for the large flock, the second time we added in the extra go around.

I was not notified by e-mail, phone, or word of mouth that there was to be a staff meeting. I found out about it from a jumper after Load 1 landed.

Those are some more facts.

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Situations like this were brought up ...



Yep, and I stand on the "I don't want to be anywhere near them without a dive plan" side. I don't think it's cool to swoop anyone who does not want to be swooped, licensed or no, and have done my best to instill that attitude into my students.

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Is it possible that one in your group is being a pain without you knowing?



Would you then punish the whole discipline, or tell the offender (and let the load organizer know) he can't wingsuit there?

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Or is it possible that there have been incidents that you were aware of, but didn't seem to be a big deal then to you, but others might have seen an issue?



See above in my response to sdh- we tried to make things better for the other jumpers whether we thought we erred or not. I don't care who you are or how many jumps you have, if you think there's a safety problem let's talk about it and find a safe solution.

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The facts last year 98 load organizer slots for Jenn Ralston (wingsuit jumps) SDH help and encourage all wingsuit fliers. I give you multiple options no one was accepted, 4 diferent instructors and video complain about wingsuit fliers flying to close. the instructor and friend is not jumping here for personal problems not money problems and the staff meeting was a real one (not luminus staff meetings and you know what i mean) this are the facts.



You don't know me, but I've known Jenn and Larry for a while. In all sincerity, I want to thank you for motivating them to come to Spaceland. Rest assured, we'll take good care of 'em.

You can be very sure that you will hear no unkind words from me either directly or otherwise.

I wish you and everyone at SDH well.

Walt

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