bert_man 0 #26 February 22, 2006 Since they're making such a big leap here in calling this the S6, it'd be cool to see some real changes, especially in the performance department. For example, this would look like a good (hypothetical) feature list for a new suit (this is just an example): ·Redesigned arm and leg wing profiles ·Improved air inlet design ·Longer leg wing, wider leg stance ·Larger rear deflector ·Free bag of magic beans to allow your farts to provide more thrust in freefall To be honest, if they use the same 'semi rigid' mylar ribs in this suit that they use in the phi, I would shy away from buying this suit just for that reason. Those ribs are a pain in the ass, they break (on two suits I know, the leg rib broke within the first 5 flights on both suits), and the added performance (if any?) just doesn't seem worth the added hassle. I'm glad to see that they finally came up with a velcroless cutaway system... hopefully it doesnt require any stitch-popping to allow you to pull the handles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buried 0 #27 February 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteOk, And where is the Phi? Yeah, I noticed that's gone from their online catalog as well. yeah the s3s isn't there either. odd tho since the s3, is still available. Looks like they just used the same product ID entry as the s3s for the s6 QuoteI'm glad to see that they finally came up with a velcroless cutaway system... hopefully it doesnt require any stitch-popping to allow you to pull the handles the velcroless system works well, tho sometimes you need to watch that they don't pop out before you get on the plane from bending, etc. It's only really a problem if you stow the cables and if they aren't cut to length. Where is my fizzy-lifting drink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #28 February 22, 2006 QuoteRobi appears to be motivated more by his own desire to design better and better suits than by external competition. He seems to design at his own pace, for his own reasons, regardless of the market. On the other hand though, without competition there is probably less incentive to spend money on productionalising* the prototypes for general release - especially on mega super high performance suits that may not be bought in high numbers. But this is all just vague speculation on my part. *Yes, I am aware this is not really a wordDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boachanoff 0 #29 February 22, 2006 Looks funny, but BM guys are not sure how to call that suit, S6 or S3S?! On the web they introducing S6 but also recommending to read the S3S testemony?!?! My conclusion is that this is completly the same suit for higher price Plamen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #30 February 22, 2006 QuoteSince they're making such a big leap here in calling this the S6 The year is 2006, the suit is an S6; no coincidence. It doesn't mean it's 3 orders of magnitude better than the S3(s)Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #31 February 22, 2006 This is interesting, the suit takes its name "Gibraltar" from the crossing of the strait last year. But look at what those guys are flying now : http://www.proyecto-alas.com/es/galleries_det.php?id=164 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bert_man 0 #32 February 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteSince they're making such a big leap here in calling this the S6 The year is 2006, the suit is an S6; no coincidence. It doesn't mean it's 3 orders of magnitude better than the S3(s) Ahh, I get it! Clever (edit:)But if this is not an S3-something, then it at least implies that it is a new suit. Could boeing repaint a 747 and call it a 757? QuoteThis is interesting, the suit takes its name "Gibraltar" from the crossing of the strait last year. Yes, this is interesting... since the records they are talking about are time and distance. This may just be speculation, but this just might have something to do with the fact that they jumped from 40,000 feet rather than 13,500...-Ghetto "The reason death cannot frighten me, is because life has cured me of fear." Web Design Cleveland Skydiving Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbla4024 0 #33 February 22, 2006 I'm quite sure S3 is not from 2003. BM naming is as consistent as Canon digital cameras. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #34 February 23, 2006 QuoteYes, this is interesting... since the records they are talking about are time and distance. This may just be speculation, but this just might have something to do with the fact that they jumped from 40,000 feet rather than 13,500... I think he meant it is interesting those guys no longer fly BM suits. Which was already mentioned earlier. And I don't care how high you jump from, crossing the straits was still pretty damn cool.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bert_man 0 #35 February 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteYes, this is interesting... since the records they are talking about are time and distance. This may just be speculation, but this just might have something to do with the fact that they jumped from 40,000 feet rather than 13,500... I think he meant it is interesting those guys no longer fly BM suits. Which was already mentioned earlier. And I don't care how high you jump from, crossing the straits was still pretty damn cool. I entirely agree that crossing the strait was awesome, I wasn't knocking that one bit... Also, I understand what he meant when he mentioned what those guys are currently flying. I was just making a different point, saying that if you break time and distance records, but you also do it from a record altitude, you can't really claim that it was because of the suit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outrager 6 #36 February 23, 2006 QuoteI'm quite sure S3 is not from 2003. BM naming is as consistent as Canon digital cameras. Yep, i remember flying one in 2002. It was revolutionary at the time. bsbd! Yuri. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #37 February 23, 2006 I thought the S5 Blade was supposed to be next in the series, but I'm not really up on all the latest...perhaps the S6 project showed more promise and was chosen instead of the Blade."The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #38 February 23, 2006 How does the velcroless cut away pillow and loop work? Is it like the keepers on velcroless toggles and risers? Maybe Zee could take a picture of them for us? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Professor 0 #39 February 23, 2006 Quote How does the velcroless cut away pillow and loop work? Not all that well. The whole thing is made of tubular webbing, folded into a tab at the top and bottom. The bottom tab goes into a keeper, and the top goes under the wing, between the cable tabs. They don't seem near as secure as velcro. Ted Like a giddy school girl. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeemax 0 #40 February 23, 2006 I would, but my S3's is, um, well not in one peice any more... It met its match when the barbed wire fence got involved. It essentially uses tuck tabs to hold it in place. I'm sure there's a picture of it here somewhere, if not i'll post some up as soon as my new suit arrives Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #41 February 23, 2006 This thread has pictures of velcroless cutaway loop stowage. I assume the S6 uses the same design.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redfox 0 #42 February 23, 2006 If you watched carefully this forum you can see that Robi already posted a photo of his black Vampire (Prototype?). Seems he was inspired from "Superterminal", because it seems he preferred to start flying head down... See: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2078309;#2078309 But seriously: I prefer if the manufacturers bring out well tested and safe wingsuits on the market, there is no real need to rush something... But on the other side: I am always tempted to fly the newest high end models on the market... Cordially, Herwig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #43 February 23, 2006 I think part of the reason development has stalled is simply that people still want to buy all-round wingsuits (for sunset chill-out, flocking, distance, time, acro etc) and it's getting to the point that innovation and step-change in one of those modes is having a significant detrimental effect on the other characteristics. When the market is ready for highly-specialised wingsuits, they will be developed. The closest we have at the moment IMHO is the V-1 for BASE - partly because there is a specific market there.-- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #44 February 23, 2006 Quote I wouldn't worry too much. S6 looks just like S3S with minor cosmetic changes applied. There definitely won't be any noticeable increase in perfomance. bsbd! Yuri. You've a bunch of flights on each, I assume? For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mariavon 0 #45 February 23, 2006 But seriously: I prefer if the manufacturers bring out well tested and safe wingsuits on the market, there is no real need to rush something... But on the other side: I am always tempted to fly the newest high end models on the market... __________________________________________ Wingsuit manufacturers do this for love not money..this is still a tiny market but the demands on the manufacturer are enormous. The level of quality and safety required, the hours and hours of labour and the cost of materials is barely covered by the selling price, a meagre $1200 at best. Now add development cost- the GS1 took 6 months for the final stages and cost $ 250 000- .. so each suit out there has cost us $5000- .We do not expect to cover R&D for years..and yet it continues, the market wants new ,better , MORE all the time , so do we all as designers, but innovation and development is very expensive . A business plan for a wingsuit business falls dismally short for investors who expect even modest returns. Perhaps the market can support ONE company, but not three or four. and therefore I have to say that you guys are all getting basically a free ride with all the options available to you. From the tone of this thread I can tell you are mostly SPOILT for choice. Innovation in this field is driven by passion and the realisation of the huge potential for direct human flight - this is art and science, not business. In our company we recognise that we need a patron, not an investor, to support our development . I don't think I am wrong to say that all wingsuits coming to the market are subsidized in some form or another either by other products, or by the desire of the manufacturer to stay in the market at their own expense -like us, or as a marketing cost for a sponsoring brand. It's fine to comment on the design of a suit and speculate on performance but to question the integrity and ethics of those skinning themselves to bring these wingsuits to y,all is wrong (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #46 February 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteRobi appears to be motivated more by his own desire to design better and better suits than by external competition. He seems to design at his own pace, for his own reasons, regardless of the market. On the other hand though, without competition there is probably less incentive to spend money on [producing] the prototypes for general release - especially on mega super high performance suits that may not be bought in high numbers. But this is all just vague speculation on my part Or perhaps a significant increase in flight performance requires a radically new design that requires substantial testing to work out all the bugs of a brand new design? My "guess" is that in several years, wingsuit pilots will look back at wingsuits designed thus far in much the same way skydivers look back at the Cruiselite. It was a fast canopy when it was new. Now there are faster canopies marketed as conservative. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #47 February 23, 2006 QuoteCool ! Birdman finally came out with the S6! Intaresting suits! Funny S-6 look the same as S-3S... Same suit under new name and more expensive as well!!! Wonder if Birdman will be able to make a new design after Robert left? Plamen It would be naive to think that none of Robi's ideas have manifested in the S.3 or S.6, just as it would be naive to believe none of Jari's ideas have manifested in the V1 design. This isn't a pissing contest. It is the pursuit of human flight. We build on what we already know. The fact is, Robi and Jari used to work together, and what they learned together they now each apply to their respective new suits. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outrager 6 #48 February 23, 2006 QuoteYou've a bunch of flights on each, I assume? I've flown plenty of Sx variations and prototypes. None of the minor changes mentioned for S6 had any effect on L/D. In fact, none of those small changes over Skyflyer Sx lifespan had any measurable effect on L/D. It took creating an entirely new platform (Vampire generation) to squeeze a bit more glide. This is where it stands now. At this stage in perfomance suit development no small cosmetic changes will have any effect. Adding more glide requires a major effort. And first of all, it requires a talented designer... that's the biggest and foremost problem: Original BirdMan had a great designer and a great marketer. The split created two companies, one with a great marketer, and another with a great designer. Currently BirdMan knows how to sell suits very well, but cannot design anything really new. Phoenix designs awesome new toys, but lags behind in advertising and marketing them. bsbd! Yuri. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vandev 0 #49 February 23, 2006 QuoteLet me tell you that some very exiting things are being made here in Karskland... Groundbreaking stuff.. I will have to say that these guys with street clothes and bungee cords are the ones pushing human flight. The more you learn it's not the suit but the suiter..i think things will really progress.... Big fan of the VKB.... chris In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflysoul 0 #50 February 23, 2006 I think there are too much people around who are rushing to buy newest WS without to know how to properly fly an "old" WS already on the market... I've seen good flyers in a Prodigy smoking people flying V1's... Also a same suit can fly really different when used by 2 different pilots, also due to their physical characteristhics... I don't think that a S3-S (or S6, how do you prefer to call it...) is a bad suit and for sure it is still a very good suit with great performances. There are too much people around who are only feeling the fashion while they should take a better training on their suits before to buy more advanced models. On the other side, me too I expected to see a totally different design by the new BirdMan suit, but this could be an intermediate step before the spring season when maybe we'll can see new models... 3,2,1,C-YA!!! V. BASE #1075 / BMI #I-002 / PFI #042 / EGI #104 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
