Ron 7 #76 January 17, 2006 QuoteErm, if that was directed at Yuri you may be under estimating his wingsuit flying skills and experience from other related disciplines I do not give a shit about his flying skills. I give a shit about the attutide that he has the right to endanger me if he feels like it. Your right to "fun" ends at my right to not be endangered. You may think you are skilled enough and there is no risk. But that does not give you the right to make assumptions with my life. The ground is filled with people who thought they had skills. I don't care if he is the best WS pilot in the world. Buzz me without consent and we are gonna talk about it...continue to do it and we will have a big problem."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #77 January 17, 2006 QuoteWhat is a buzz? 10 yds? 100 yds? Half a mile? QuoteI haven't addressed it because I don't know or care. The fact of the matter is that you are still in freefall and I don't understand why you should be ANYWHERE near people under canopy without their permission. If any other discipline of skydiver did that they would be torn a new one. If your pattern puts you in freefall around open canopies, then there is something wrong with your pattern. It is a huge sky and you can fly anywhere you want to go, so why should you be anywhere near us? This is the second time you've responded with, "I don't know, and I don't care". Obviously you do care, since you've made many posts about how much we need to prevent wingsuit buzzes. Do you consider someone flying by half a mile away to be a buzz? The question DOES need to be addressed, otherwise you're saying that you can't identify the very event which you are condemning. I realize some people here have been instigating you and you don't have a reason to care too much about us right now, but raising issues about our flight operations and then responding to our serious quesitons with "I don't care" comes off sort of harsh. We're skydivers too, and we're not all dicks. Unless we fly straight away from the dropzone for our entire flight and land off, it is not possible to avoid all potential situations where there is a canopy nearby (we do avoid 99% of them though, as I will explain). Hell, on a normal freefall jump, if you open and fly your canopy straight up the jumprun, you can fly your canopy under the freefallers who exited after you. On ANY skydive you can get in somebody else's airspace. Every freefaller knows to avoid the situation described above (flying under someone else still in freefall), you fly your canopy away from jumprun after opening (you create proper exit separation too, obviously). The flipside of this coin is that if you CONTINUE to fly away from jumprun for a long amount of time and cover a large distance, you will be in airspace where wingsuits may be too. Assume a 1 mile long jumprun, and assume any canopy can fly at LEAST 1/2 mile off of jumprun after opening, that is ONE SQUARE MILE that canopies can potentially occupy. In reality it can be even bigger than that. As I said above, the only way for us to avoid that entire space would be to fly away from the dropzone our entire flight and land off. The way we do run our flight pattern avoids 99% of canopy traffic. Usually all the canopies are in a neat little line and we are way off to the side. Sometimes however, there is a canopy or two over where we are, somebody who has opened high and flown way off of jumprun. Again, speaking for myself, I keep my eyes open and identify canopies like this a full 30 seconds out (~2000 ft away). If I am headed into their immediate airspace, I alter my course a little bit and pass at a safe 50-100 yds. Not a buzz, but not totally bending over backwards to change my entire flight plan and fly the other way entirely. Plus, I'd prefer to keep them in my sight once I've seen them, and this is the best way to do this. My question remains - do you consider that a buzz?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #78 January 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteHowever,the act of buzzing someone has a very high probability of death or injury if something does go wrong and therefore endangers them. I very strongly disagree. Repeat: the act of buzzing someone is very safe, as safe as clapping hands. bsbd! Yuri. You continue to miss the point(s) entirely here or you're simply refusing to admit your statement/belief is not what the general consensus is. I have covered at least 3 different ways it's dangerous or there is a potential for danger to exist. I am going to use an example that I had hoped I wouldn't have to use. Since you leave me no other choice, I will use it in hopes that the light will come on for those who don't believe there is a potential for danger. Before I give my example let me define a few things for clarity: We are talking about a wingsuiter buzzing someone or for the matter, some thing (moving or stationary). And just for clarification, we will define buzzing as being in close enough proximity to the object/person as to be able to possibly make contact/hit it while in flight. Because 1 of the issues we are talking about here is the potential/danger for a strike and that persons perception. Save all the "talented/skilled wingsuit pilot" and "perpedicular to the horizontal bisector" mumbo jumbo and any other rationalization/justification. We are talking about the human error factor and variables that cannot be calculated for while in freefall and the fact that "Shit Happens". My example of why this can be dangerous and/or potentially dangerous.......Dwain Weston Hopefully this has made it less obtuse to everyone now. "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #79 January 17, 2006 QuoteI don't care if he is the best WS pilot in the world. Buzz me without consent and we are gonna talk about it. Ron, I am not disagreeing with you at all, but I have sort of a related question. Why is it that when the jump plane buzzes the spectators at the end of the day, everybody cheers? I was at a large boogie recently, at a very safe DZ, where a DC3 buzzed pretty freaking close over the crowd every night at sunset. Everybody (as far as I know), myself included, thought it was cool. Was that pilot the "best in the world"? I doubt it. I am not in any way saying the two situations are identical, but they are without a doubt similar. Every time I see an airplane coming almost straight at me, the #1 thought in my head is what would happen to me if that plane dipped its nose half a degree. But I still cheer. www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outrager 6 #80 January 17, 2006 QuoteYOU think its safe, I don't. Since its my ass on the line as well you have no right to risk my ass for your fun. This is soooo funny It illustrates perfectly what i said: unplanned buzzing scares the hell out of some people. It is all about fear. Once again: unplanned buzzing isn't cool. It is simply not unsafe. Don't do it for the right reason bsbd! Yuri. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outrager 6 #81 January 17, 2006 QuoteAnd just for clarification, we will define buzzing as being in close enough proximity to the object/person as to be able to possibly make contact with it while in flight. You just defined a dock, not a buzz. It is indeed dangerous. I defined a buzz as being far enough to account for any unexpected canopy maneuver. Such a distance greatly exceeds any margin for the pilot's own imperfections. It is safe. bsbd! Yuri. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robibird 2 #82 January 17, 2006 Buzzing.... zum-zumm - it is fun!! After all what have been said here, there is not much to say. However, The best is to coordinate such action with people you intend to buzz... Can't hurt, It can only help...Why?! For any bad situation in our sport we do not need two persons, often we need just one irresponsible person. Again, to buzz or to swoop very close to some person, certain skill level is required How close one need to fly next to second part in the game depends a lot on many factors: skill level, overall experience, visibility, motivation ( why doing this) etc... The most funny thing to me on this thread is the fact, that such simple problem generate such giant discussion Imagine to place this discussion to other culture, countries (Russia, France, etc) places with different mentality. What would happen?! Most probably, fast clean answer will follow! Answer like: '' All cool, make this in the safe way, and have fun! What is safe?! Well this is to be determine by those who gonna do the buzz - right.... At the end... Can't resist to say also what I often like to say: I am so much afraid of those who trying to protect me all the time from something!! Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #83 January 17, 2006 HEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!! (calvin stands on a chair and waves his hands in the croud) ok, so we really need to decide what is a buzzjob. because some of you anti buzzjob people are making it seem like we probuzzjob people are trying to kill you with head to heads and 20' unplanned swoops. Im sorry, i just might pass within 500'of you while your under canopy, simply because you lay in my flight path. if thats a buzz job and is unsafe... we should probably segragate wingsuit and freefall dropzones, because im sorry, thats retarded. SOO... lets decide what a buzzjob is because all you are argueing over nothing at the moment. what do you say? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 78 #84 January 17, 2006 It is hard to say what too close is and I am pretty sure that what most jumpers consider too close will be drastically different than what most WS flyers consider too close. In the other thread someone put it this way. if you weren't wearing a wingsuit and you got out after me and when we landed I had to walk up to you and say, you need to leave more time between groups because you were too close to us, that is what I would consider too close. We all have enough to worry and think about when we are under canopy and the last thing I need to be worrying about is "where are the WS going to be coming from as they pass by us." I am not trying to cause a rift between you and us, I just don't understand why you need to fly a pattern that is going to put you anywhere near open canopies while you are still in freefall. If you guys have as much control and awareness as you all seem to say you have, then stay the hell away and there is no potential for a problem (perceived or otherwise). You guys have displayed the attitude that you know what you are doing and are in complete control and we should just trust you to do the right thing. Sorry, but that is not acceptable to me. As soon as I get a chance, I will get Scott's book and read through it. I would really like to understand more.Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauras 0 #85 January 17, 2006 Hello! I think you're very correct in saying this is a simple issue. If you or Rob Jones wanted to plan a buzz with me under canopy, I would be happy to participate, but I wouldn't want someone with 500 jumps total and 50 WS flights anywhere near me. The point of this discussion (for me anyway) is to clarify that I, and I think a lot of skydivers, want a plan and to try to avoid surprises. We all know a big part of skydiving is calculating risk. Some people are comfortable with more risk, some aren't. I would like to try BASE (ok, let's make that A & S for now) and wing suit flight as that's acceptable risk to me. The 400-ways coming up in Thailand are not acceptable. Hauling tandems are not acceptable. Just illustrating that everyone is different, so why not get everything out in the open and discuss?! Again, the reason I brought this topic up in the first place is because WS flight is getting very popular and commonplace at my home dz. Wouldn't it be cool to have the flight pattern & unique qualities of WS flight common knowledge on every dz? Cue "Kumbaya" now! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robibird 2 #86 January 17, 2006 :) Regardless of hours of training and skils, we all need to respect the comfort level of other participants. Once one is in the air, we all expect from him to respect our life and his own life as well. This is the basic rule why we have opportunity to do something what majority of the human kind think is stupid anyway :o)Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #87 January 17, 2006 Quotesomething what majority of the human kind think is stupid anyway :o) You are talking about arguing on the internet, right? www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 78 #88 January 17, 2006 QuoteFlying a wingsuit around tandem canopies is very much like driving a car around orange plastic cones. The amount of control and glide that WS pilot has is almost impossible to imagine for a skydiver who is used to helplessly falling down That is very easy to say when you are the car. I am sure the cones feel otherwise. Funny, I have seen some pretty banged up orange cones on the side of the road. But seriously, we are sitting ducks for you guys and all you are really saying is "trust us, we know what we are doing"Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robibird 2 #89 January 17, 2006 Yes, on global level! Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #90 January 17, 2006 "That is very easy to say when you are the car. I am sure the cones feel otherwise. " Thats Great! Of course, a cone doesnt dice a car into several peices while raining blood and organs over a bunch of the cones' family members who have video cameras when the car hits the cone... I have no idea who that helps... i guess cones are fun to hit with a car. tandem canopies are not. so i stay a bit farther away from them. but i still call them gates. ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outrager 6 #91 January 17, 2006 QuoteThat is very easy to say when you are the car. I am sure the cones feel otherwise. Brilliant! And it illustrates the whole issue very well Quote But seriously, we are sitting ducks for you guys and all you are really saying is "trust us, we know what we are doing" What i personally say is "don't buzz unplanned", not because of safety concerns but because "cones have feelings too" By the way a wingsuit/canopy collision will likely kill WS flyer and merely cause a reserve ride for a canopy pilot. So in the end, WS pilots are the ones who would suffer the consequences. bsbd! Yuri. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflyingbecca 0 #92 January 17, 2006 QuoteThe most funny thing to me on this thread is the fact, that such simple problem generate such giant discussion Welcome to Dropzone.com! Seems nothing here can be discussed simply. It is a place where communication can only be accentuated so much by yellow faces. Everyone sems to misunderstand everyone else, and we have to root through tons of junk to find the informative nuggets we are looking for. Note: Not a bash at dz.com, I still adore and support the site "I know it's friday night, but come on. Surely there's something better to do than yell at people on the internet?" - Tom A. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #93 January 17, 2006 Actually that sounded like a personal attack. im banning you for 2 weeks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
980 0 #94 January 17, 2006 Quote In the other thread someone put it this way. if you weren't wearing a wingsuit and you got out after me and when we landed I had to walk up to you and say, you need to leave more time between groups because you were too close to us, that is what I would consider too close. dude you need to get a clue about how wingsuits fit in with a turbine DZ operation, especially one flying planes like otters... I fly a canopy loaded at 1.67, so it makes no sense for me to try and outfloat the high-pullers, students and tandems. I also get 2 to 3 minutes of 'freefall' from 14500ft-2500ft, so I can easily land in the time gap between experienced jumpers and high-pullers/students/tandems by opening at 2500 - 300ft and it makes sense from a canopy descent rate point of view. to do this I have to pass said high-pullers/students/tandems while still flying my wingsuit I do this at a safe distance and in a controlled manner. why should I pull 3000 - 4000 ft higher than I need to, just in case I need to try and outfloat a tandem in brakes when they have a long spot? make sense? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #95 January 17, 2006 QuoteRon, I am not disagreeing with you at all, but I have sort of a related question. Why is it that when the jump plane buzzes the spectators at the end of the day, everybody cheers? If it buzzes the people on the ground I don't cheer. The pilot has no right to risk others to get his jollies."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #96 January 17, 2006 QuoteThis is soooo funny It illustrates perfectly what i said: unplanned buzzing scares the hell out of some people. It is all about fear Its not about fear, its about how some idiots think they have skills they don't and are willing to risk MY life for their thrill. You wanna risk your own neck? Great, have a blast and if you fuck up, make a big mark with your blood. You wanna buzz me? We are gonna talk about it, and if you do it without my permission. I'm gonna hurt ya. You are risking my life thinking you are good enough. I disagree. Attitudes like yours are why Birdmen are getting flack. Its not about my fear, its about your ego and you using my body to puff your ego up. Notice that quite a few GOOD fliers have said its stupid?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 78 #97 January 17, 2006 Quoteyou need to get a clue about how wingsuits fit in with a turbine DZ operation, especially one flying planes like otters... You need to get a clue that there are a lot fewer wing suit flyers than everyone else and if people start to perceive a problem, it is you that is going to suffer. QuoteI fly a canopy loaded at 1.67, so it makes no sense for me to try and outfloat the high-pullers, students and tandems. I also get 2 to 3 minutes of 'freefall' from 14500ft-2500ft, so I can easily land in the time gap between experienced jumpers and high-pullers/students/tandems by opening at 2500 - 300ft and it makes sense from a canopy descent rate point of view. to do this I have to pass said high-pullers/students/tandems while still flying my wingsuit At my DZ if you want to swoop the pond, you have the choice of getting out low or getting out last and opening high. The jumpers that want to freefall then swoop have to trade off some of their freefall time by pulling higher. That is the way it is, they can't have everything every skydive. Why should you? QuoteI do this at a safe distance and in a controlled manner. You do this at what YOU consider is a safe distance and in what YOU consider a safe and controlled manner. I don't know you and I don't want you deciding for me what is safe and what is controlled. Quotewhy should I pull 3000 - 4000 ft higher than I need to, just in case I need to try and outfloat a tandem in brakes when they have a long spot? Because sometimes you have to give up something to get something Quotemake sense? NoTime flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #98 January 17, 2006 Way I see it is you plan a skydive ......right? Whether its freeflying, RW or Wingsuiting you all have at best a 'general' plan....(ie worst case at least a break off height) Why would you think that you dont need to plan buzzing a canopy its still part of yours and others skydives......from alot of this discussion here it seems alot of those in favour of buzzing are in favour of doing it 'unannounced' alot closer than I previously thought..... Some wingsuiters might say its as much 'their' sky to play in.....but its also the canopy flyers sky as well.....as well as being blatently 'risky'....note I did not say down right dangerous....its also incredibly arrogant and impolite to assume you have the right to scare the wits out of and put a fellow jumper at risk without warning. Ask them.......and think about how much more fun you can have with them with their consent....ie actually plan it.... Certainly I would be pissed off with someone 'buzzing' me intentionally without my consent. That said I wander if those who dont think they should ask feel that way because they have no idea of who they are likely to be nearest to in the sky and able to buzz......so dont know who to ask? (Fireproof suit is now on , and zipped up .....you may continue) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outrager 6 #99 January 17, 2006 QuoteIts not about my fear, its about your ego and you using my body to puff your ego up. Ron, you are such a perfect cone Quote Notice that quite a few GOOD fliers have said its stupid? Notice that the BEST fliers said it is not ? bsbd! Yuri. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badenhop 0 #100 January 17, 2006 Sheesh Ron, You perceive I may hurt you in the sky by accident, but don't... God bless you, Avery================================== I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton http://www.AveryBadenhop.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
