Buzzing people under canopy?

[Calvin19 0]

"5000' feet is where I ask to get out. "

--and it still feels dirty high.

[okalb 78]

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SENIOR AFF INSTRUCTOR + COMPETE + WIN GOLD = PISSED.
Bummer.
I got into the sport to have fun.

Sorry, but that is without a doubt one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on dropzone.com. We all got in the sport to have fun. Your fun STOPS when you are endangering the life and safety of other jumpers who have nothing to do with what you are doing. You want to act like a jackass, that is your business. Do it close to me or my friends or innocent students without our consent that becomes our business.

You have no right to endanger other peoples safety for your amusement. Scott was right, it is moronic attitudes like yours that make the rest of us dislike wingsuit flyers.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[dploi 0]

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Hello,

Buzzing is cool,
getting pissed about it is not.

God bless you,

Avery

Amen.

[Tonto 1]

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SENIOR AFF INSTRUCTOR + COMPETE + WIN GOLD = PISSED.
Bummer.
I got into the sport to have fun.

Sorry, but that is without a doubt one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on dropzone.com.

With you there. I'm on all sides of this coin, having done 700+ Tandems, 1800+ AFF jumps, competed and got gold and being a wingsuit pilot with a BMI and PFI rating. I feel that buzzing, with planning and consent, is OK. When some random noob that thinks they have the skillset to save me when it's their judgement that placed me at risk in the 1st place - I worry.

This sport is filled with incidents in the early days of Tandem when people collided with the TI, sometimes incapacitating them and resulting in the death of the Tandem pair, and this happened both in freefall and under canopy. The "Tandems go last" rule was designed to defeat those who's ego's were larger than their skillset, but it seems
that wingsuiting has given them another chance.

I'd hope that "attitudes like yours that make the rest of us dislike wingsuit flyers." could be altered to say "Your attitude...dislike people like you." at some point in the future. We're not all like that.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[okalb 78]

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I'd hope that "attitudes like yours that make the rest of us dislike wingsuit flyers." could be altered to say "Your attitude...dislike people like you." at some point in the future. We're not all like that.

t

True and I should have said that differently, but unfortunately, there are more with his attitude around than yours.

What seems odd, is that for the most part (with a few exceptions) all of the people that think it is cool to buzz someone without planning it, all have a few hundred jumps, while the people with over a thousand jumps say it is uncool. But hey, what do we know? They have done this hundreds of times, they know everything there is to know.

All I know is that we have a fair number of wingsuit pilots at z-hills and out of all of them, there are probably less than a handful that I would trust to buzz me. If any of the others did it, I would be extremely pissed at best. Even the ones that I trust should talk to me before doing it. If buzzing canopies without their consent becomes more common, I would be willing to bet that rules will be put into place that will make life very difficult for the wingsuit pilots. Like with everything else in the sport, If they can't police themselves, then others will be more than happy to do it for them.

-OK

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[badenhop 0]

Hello,

It’s unfortunate that you’ve now been reduced to name calling and prejudice.
If you read my posts, you can’t find a place where I called anyone stupid,
nor have I made a broad ‘dislike’ statement about any person or group.
I have not advocated unsafe behavior for anyone, except for maybe myself,
and have not suggested that buzzing go on between strangers.
I have commented only about attitude, based on my experience.
I’ve met snooty skydivers all over who seem to get pissed about everything.

It has also been my experience thus far that lower skilled wingsuit flyers tend
to be scared shitless of everything, and fly way off into the distance,
pulling up around 4 or 5 grand. They creep back towards the dropzone when
another bird gets with them for a little coaching, and then when they appear
comfortable, they finally join the flock, and do what we do.

It’s also been my experience that accomplished wingsuit pilots know what
I know about flying above a host of open canopies of skydivers and tandems.
They are easy to spot, easy to navigate, and easy to miss by as much as you want.
Zipping by @ 2500' to me suggests a more experienced flyer.

The first question I ever ask when boarding an aircraft for solo wingsuit
flights is “What color is all of y’alls canopies?” They always smile and
say me, me, me, I’m pink or blue or whatever. Then I ask for the exit order.
Even if there’s two birds, the tandems and such are still game if we are.
As soon as a flock gets on, then we start to fly a flocking pattern that
usually does not include them. (Shucks guys, maybe next load).

I pretty much jump at one happy dz where we all know each other.
If I go to a dropzone other than “home” it’s going to be to flock,
and then I really can’t be bothered to take time off to buzz.

I don’t know how close of a “buzz” she got, or the skill level of the bird
who committed the offense. I just think it’s a shame to have someone
walking around the dz pissed at people because they all don’t seem to
operate with someone's level of so called safety margins or danger thresholds.

Don’t worry, I won’t hurt you.

Anyway, God bless you, blue skies, softer hearts,

Avery

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[mccordia 73]

It wil only take one wingsuiter going through a canopy to make sure 'we' (as a dicipline) wil see a lot of new rules we don't want to see...

And a parachute that makes an unexpected turn, because it was not a planned flyby, adds a lot of danger to an already dangerous manouver..

How hard is it to ask/tell someone before you jump...takes 3 seconds to ask, and could save a life, or at least an ass-chewing (from the person you passed/DZO/etc)

Doing a flyby past another wingsuiter who you outclimbed on the same jump (after seperation)...maybe?....he'll probably know what to expect....and even if he/she doesnt know...he will freak out less then a non-wingsuiting jumper...who has no clue about what control you do (or do not) have over your freefall...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[okalb 78]

You still don't seem to get it. Let me put it a different way.

Before wingsuits existed, if I were to get out of the plane last, spend the entire skydive tracking up the line of flight, freefall past the other jumpers under canopy and open in the middle of them, I would probably get a pretty stiff talking to. If I continued to do it on a regular basis, I would probably get grounded if not worse. What makes people with a wingsuit any different? Why are you exempt from what is considered safe and proper behavior? Why should the rest of us have to deal with the additional risk because you want to have some fun? If you are bored flying a wingsuit and need to fly between canopies to entertain yourself, then maybe you should find a different hobby.

If you ask people in front of you on the plane and they don't mind, go for it. Otherwise you should be opening in the same place that the last group out would be opening if they weren't wing suit flyers. You should never be further up the line of flight than you would be if you were the last group out without wings.

The reason myself and many others have a problem with MOST wingsuit flyers is because too many of them have the attitude that I have seen in this thread. You are not special and the same rules apply to you that apply to everyone else in every other discipline of the sport. I don't care how much control you THINK you have. You have no right to put others at risk with your antics.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[The111 0]

Oren, I am going to play devil's advocate again, but first I will agree that unplanned buzzes are not cool. But as I pointed out earlier proximity plays a huge role in the definition of buzz. If I see the jump plane fly by my open canopy a couple hundred yards away after opening, I will smile and think "cool". If I see the jump plane 20 yards away from my canopy (I have, at certain DZ's), I will get a little scared and still think "cool", but that's just me - I would not blame somebody else for getting angry in such a situation. Of those two jump plane situations described above, only one qualifies as a buzz.

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Before wingsuits existed, if I were to get out of the plane last, spend the entire skydive tracking up the line of flight, freefall past the other jumpers under canopy and open in the middle of them, I would probably get a pretty stiff talking to. If I continued to do it on a regular basis, I would probably get grounded if not worse. What makes people with a wingsuit any different?

There are two questions at stake here.
(1) Is it acceptable for a wingsuit to fly by at a certain distance to your canopy?
(2) Is that any different from somebody tracking by your canopy?

Your above question is #2, so I will suspend #1 while I answer it. It is VERY, VERY different. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, a wingsuit buzzing your canopy has more in common with a Velocity flying by, than it does with a tracker. It is not the SAME as a Velocity, but it is definitely a world away from a tracker. Have you flown a wingsuit? (I am not disputing your claim about safety considerations being similar in the two situations, just pointing out that wingsuit flight, physically, is fundamentally different from freefall)

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Otherwise you should be opening in the same place that the last group out would be opening if they weren't wing suit flyers. You should never be further up the line of flight than you would be if you were the last group out without wings.

Please don't take this as criticism, but this statement alone shows (or seems to show, my apologies if I am wrong) at least a partial misunderstanding of how wingsuits work and what they can do (and this, a lack of awareness on either side, is a root of the problem here). A standard, safe wingsuit flightplan does NOT include opening up in the same place a non-wingsuit "last group" would open. The ideal flight pattern is to spend half the flight going away from jumprun, and the other half going parallel to it, in the direction of the DZ. Usually in my experience you open up far to the side (cross jumprun) of the first group... or sometimes even past them if you want (we open at least 1-2 miles from where we exit). This is the best flight pattern for wingsuits, for a lot of reasons I won't go into here, but is not without problems - sometimes the earlier jumpers who pulled high spend a lot of time flying crosswind and end up near us (wingsuits) before we pull. I am a local at Zhills and when I am where I should be, there are often tandem canopies in front of me @3k feet, far off the line of flight. I will not say they are "in my way" since it is very possible they are not aware of the wingsuit flight pattern (a problem for both sides, we all need to strive to be more aware of what the other types of jumpers are doing). As I said in an earlier post, I turn to avoid the canopy and fly by at 50-100 yards away, not a buzz by my definition. I have had quite a few people approach me afterwards and say that was cool. I don't plan buzzes and I don't look for them, but if people end up in the same airspace as me, the bottom line is I am going to be flying by their canopy at some distance, so I make it a safe one. I am not going to tell somebody they were in "my" airspace either because I am fine with it and keep my eyes open when I fly. BUT if somebody ever tells me I was in the wrong for avoiding their canopy at a VERY safe distance, I will have to point out to them that the standard wingsuit flight pattern will always have wingsuiters descending .5-1 miles off of the line of flight, and if you are uncomfortable with that you shouldn't fly that far away yourself. That said, you have a right to be uncomfortable if anybody is buzzing you extremely close because (1) they thought it would be fun or (2) their eyes weren't open. We all share the same airspace whether flying a canopy or a wingsuit, and we all need to keep our eyes open and keep respectable distances. As I pointed out earlier, any reasonable person would get pissed if I flew up behind them under my Spectre and yelled in their ear.

Speaking of sharing airspace, I have seen more than one glider very close to me while flying my wingsuit at Zhills, which is another good reason to keep your eyes open when flying a wingsuit...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[badenhop 0]

Hello,

ROFL
You are a hoot!
I don't have a problem with most geeks and swoopers,
but they may all have to stop skydiving.
After all, why should any of the humans down on the earth
ever be put at risk because of their antics?
No matter how much control they think they have....






edited to add: Thanks 111 for taking the time to write
up all that stuff about flight patterns.
I wanted to explain how we get out a couple miles away
and fly back, but didn't have the time.

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[dploi 0]

Wingsuits are fun!

[okalb 78]

Frankly, you are right. I don't know about the pattern you guys fly and to be completely honest, I don't really care. If your flight pattern puts you around people who are under canopy while you are still in freefall then I have a problem with it. Now here is the part where you try to tell me that you are not "really" still in freefall and then I ask you....do you have a parachute open? And then you say, it is more like a canopy than you think and I say, can you land with it

This is not a comment aimed at you, but quite a few of wingsuit flyers that I have seen at z-hills, I wouldn't trust to show me which direction was north. I am by no means implying that all wing suit flyers are clueless. I am saying that just because you put on a wing suit, doesn't automatically mean you have a clue.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[voodew1 0]

Can we argue about wingsuit training again its much more fun??????????

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[okalb 78]

Lets see how all of the other non wingsuit jumpers feel about it.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2030334;#2030334

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[lauras 0]

Holy Crapola, Batman! I didn't think the initial question would spur on such panty-knotting and finger-pointing!

Qualifications, ratings and all that other stuff aside, I just want anyone who buzzes me, whether by wing suit or by Velocity or whatever, to clear it with me first and have a plan in place PLUS a "what if we fuck-up" plan.

So, does the onus fall on the wing suit flyers to request permission? My instinct says "you bet your sweet ass it does." Surprises in freefall or under canopy = Great Unhappiness.

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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Lets see how all of the other non wingsuit jumpers feel about it.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2030334;#2030334

We did a full circle on that one .

You have said yourself that you don't know about the wingsuit pattern. Please read about it and understand it. Maybe its time to have a FAQ for skydivers that don't want to fly wingsuits but have concerns about safety.

Kris.

[lauras 0]

Hmmm, you have a very good point. Guess I'll go shake a guy in a wing suit down and get some more info. The flight pattern's been explained to me before, but from what I've seen, the wing suit guys seem to land off an awful lot and/or make the meat-haulers (or back-of-the-bus jumpers) nervous. I'll admit that I'm mystified. I'll report back...

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[Calvin19 0]

"Can we argue about wingsuit training again its much more fun?????????? "







i agree... should i start?

BMIs are a bunch of flutterfeatherfreeloaders!

(did really just write that? whoa...)

not really... this is just fun.

anyway, my final word
I think that if there is no way the canopy pilot can change course to intercept the wingsuit, its not a buzz, and is not unsafe, and i am going to continue to fly past people at a safe distance. if i get yelled at by a person of some "authority" i will increase the distance when they are watching.

(caution wake turbulance)

[Pendragon 1]

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... but from what I've seen, the wing suit guys seem to land off an awful lot ...

Those wingsuit pilots that keep landing off probably don't know what they're doing. Unless there's particular constraints being imposed (e.g. at boogies) on the direction of wingsuit flight, there isn't any good reason I can think of.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[okalb 78]

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... but from what I've seen, the wing suit guys seem to land off an awful lot ...

Those wingsuit pilots that keep landing off probably don't know what they're doing. Unless there's particular constraints being imposed (e.g. at boogies) on the direction of wingsuit flight, there isn't any good reason I can think of.

Funny that just proved my point. We have no such restrictions and the same ones that talk about buzzing people, are the ones that land off all the time.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[badenhop 0]

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Funny that just proved my point. We have no such restrictions and the same ones that talk about buzzing people, are the ones that land off all the time.

Hello,
That only proves that the birds in your hood may be crappy pilots,
and also that you seem to have a bee in your bonnet.

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[outrager 6]

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That said, our senior AFF instructor was buzzed a couple of months ago (she competes and wins gold alot at the world level, so she's no rookie) and was PISSED. Is this becoming more common and if so, shouldn't regular jumpers be told that that's the plan?

There are 2 sides to this:

A reasonably skilled WS pilot can pass within, say, 100' of your canopy absolutely safely. This accounts for any of your unexpected turns - if preplanned, the distance can be 0 (as in actual docking).

However, it takes another reasonably skilled WS pilot under canopy to recognize this. Most people who are buzzed are not wingsuit pilots, so they can and do freak out. Plus, they have no way of knowing if a WS pilot is indeed reasonably skilled.

I strongly disagree with those who said that unplanned buzzing is dangerous. When done by a skilled pilot buzzing is very safe, but this isn't a matter of safety - this is a matter of trust. If i clap my hands behind somebody's ear, people tend to freak out - same goes for a wingsuit buzz. It's a matter of being polite, rather than safe.

Fear and real danger are frequently unrelated, and this is a perfect example of it.

bsbd!

Yuri.

P.S. Watch "Superterminal" for some fine examples of close proximity wingsut flying. It will open your eyes and blow your mind.

[LouDiamond 1]

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Guess I'll go shake a guy in a wing suit down and get some more info.

They should have copies of my book Skyflying Wingsuits in Motion at the gear store there in Z hills that you could look at for a thourough description of how the BirdMan flight plan works along with graphics. I believe I have also posted the information in a thread here a few years back, so a search may bring it up as well. Once you have an understanding of the flight plan, I think you will see how "we"(wingsuits) make an effort to avoid other skydivers during the skydive.

The bottom line here is that ANYTHING you do, be it on the ground or in the air, that endangers someone elses life/well being without their knowing or consent is going to cause those people to become angry with you.To most, this would seem like common sense, but there are always those who think that the rules don't apply to them, they have mad skills or think its harmless. You see these types of people on the road, in stores, in the sky, under canopy and often in the hospital or obituaries daily. Why anyone would want to be labeled as "one of those guys" or "dead man in training" in life or on the DZ is beyond me. However, if you're one of those persons who falls into that category, you can expect those around you to be angry with your actions at some point, be it on the road or in the air.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[outrager 6]

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The bottom line here is that ANYTHING you do, be it on the ground or in the air, that endangers someone elses life/well being without their knowing or consent is going to cause those people to become angry with you.

Regarding WS canopy buzzing, it does not endanger someone elses life/well being without their consent. Instead it does scare someone else.

The difference is huge, but the end result is the same. People do become angry. What matters here is not the risk, it is the fear.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[okalb 78]

I couldn't agree more and I will check Sunshine Factory for your book. Thanks!

-OK

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana