lauras 0 #1 January 14, 2006 Question from a jumper with zero wing suit experience: is it a common occurance to buzz people under canopy? Let me elaborate: my home dz recently had a pretty big boogie with multiple planes flying. Drops were timed about 5 to 7 minutes apart usually. I overheard a couple of newer jumpers on the ground saying "dude, that was so cool getting buzzed by the wingsuit guys while I was flying around." That said, our senior AFF instructor was buzzed a couple of months ago (she competes and wins gold alot at the world level, so she's no rookie) and was PISSED. Is this becoming more common and if so, shouldn't regular jumpers be told that that's the plan? Not pointing fingers, I'm honestly curious if this is a new thing. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badenhop 0 #2 January 14, 2006 Hello, Buzzing is cool, getting pissed about it is not. God bless you, Avery================================== I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton http://www.AveryBadenhop.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauras 0 #3 January 14, 2006 Hello! I think she was bent out of shape because she was under canopy at 2500 and the guy zipped by her and then dumped in front of her... So, should he have said something about his plans beforehand? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badenhop 0 #4 January 14, 2006 So I'm still not understanding what she was bent about.================================== I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton http://www.AveryBadenhop.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #5 January 14, 2006 Common? I dunno. I do it when the opportunity is there and know that the person I'm gonna buzz won't freak out about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hecy68 0 #6 January 14, 2006 I recently got a smak on the wrist for a so called buzz . i personely didnt endanger myself or the 50 jump student who complaned to my dissbalief .*** its like everythings in slow motion when you get down to it ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #7 January 15, 2006 Quoteis it a common occurance to buzz people under canopy? Unplanned buzzing is not only bad form, it also shows how inconsiderate and irresponsible safety wise the wingsuit pilot is. However, Planned buzzing with the jumpers prior consent and planning can be quite fun. Things such as when the buzz starts/stops, which way to turn to avoid collisions, etc should all be planned before hand. Indiscriminate buzzing or deploying around those under canopy with out prior coordination is a good way to piss people off ( DZSO/S&TA) and shed a bad light on wingsuiting in general. Your senior AFF instructors reaction serves as a good barometer of how an unplanned buzzing is viewed. Unplanned buzzing is not cool, it is stupid and shows a serious lack of safety on the wingsuiters part and for the safety of others."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #8 January 15, 2006 I have been to some DZs where the tandem masters and students beg for the buzz job and think it is the greatest thing in the world. I have also been at other DZs where we were given a 2 minute go around so we would not be anywhere near the tandems due to the tandem masters feeling unsafe about us opening up within a 1/4 mile of them (I am not exagerating at all on the 1/4 mile). As said previously it should be a planned buzz job and the approach to the canopy should be made where there are plenty of outs. My new home DZ has a no tandem swooping policy but experienced jumpers are fair game The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #9 January 15, 2006 Quote I have also been at other DZs where we were given a 2 minute go around so we would not be anywhere near the tandems due to the tandem masters feeling unsafe about us opening up within a 1/4 mile of them (I am not exagerating at all on the 1/4 mile). I know a DZ like that, but it's just a very ultra-conservative place. But I think a lot of non-wingsuit jumpers really don't understand how much flying control you have in a wingsuit. They get very paranoid about you being anywhere near their airspace, the same as they would if someone was doing a normal skydive right on top of them. I'd imagine that if you buzzed or do a flyby on one of them, you could easily cause grief for other wingsuiters at your DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #10 January 15, 2006 There are lots of little semi- hidden bonuses to winging it. Buzzing people under canopy (tandems or high openers ) is one of them. So far this has been a no tears experience as most wingsuiters have been fairly experienced skydivers who know how to keep their eyes open........ and steer properly. One tendency I've noticed is for BASE orientated wingsuiters to buzz people under canopy a fair bit lower down .... in the grey to black zone for skydiving. To some -one used to dumping a few seconds off the ground 2000' looks like a moon shot. Camo and darker canopies can also supply some unexpected surprises to a wingsuiter gone all complacent. Most responsible SO's will have their say out loud Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #11 January 15, 2006 You definitely ought to plan the buzz in advance, just like any other part of a skydive. If someone buzzed her without notice, I can see why she'd be a bit put out.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #12 January 15, 2006 I think we should consider how we define a "buzz" I think some students would think that a wingsuiter flying within 300' of them would be pretty cool, and definetly a buzz job. I think it gets unsafe when it matters which way the canopy turns, then its close, but a normal 1/1 loaded canopy couldnt cover 300 feet in 10 seconds, and it would be pretty tough to fly a suit accidently into a canopy with that distance. I think anything closer than the "if he turns, were wrapping" stuff, its unsafe, and should have consent of both parties. That said, im with Avery. Buzzing is fun. Tandems are dirty slow, so when we fly the V1s, we call the Tandems "Gates". On a planned buzz, i have gotten within 20' of a freind, and seen a head to head get within about 10', and it was sick. (2.5/1 canoy, and wingsuit. read:closing speed, 200mph) both parties knew what was up and knew the risks. but even fast moving canopies cant cover 300' that fast, and i would consider 300' a pretty safe distance in a wingsuit. hell, i buzz canopies tracking closer than that. really, consider the "if he turns we are wrapping" every time. It has not happened to my knoledge yet, but it will be ugly when it does. really ugly. like an apple through a chain link fence ugly (seen it once, dont need it again). be carefull. and watch out for those wingsuiters, some of them did not recieve proper BMI instruction and cannot be trusted. just playing... now seriously, be careful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #13 January 15, 2006 I couldn't agree more, very well said post. Funny too."The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #14 January 15, 2006 I would not buzz someone without planning it with them first - and I'd be pretty pissed off if someone buzzed me without asking. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #15 January 15, 2006 QuoteHello! I think she was bent out of shape because she was under canopy at 2500 and the guy zipped by her and then dumped in front of her... So, should he have said something about his plans beforehand? That guy definitely buzzed too low. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
verticalflyer 11 #16 January 15, 2006 Quote " On a planned buzz, i have gotten within 20' of a freind, and seen a head to head get within about 10', and it was sick. (2.5/1 canoy, and wingsuit. read:closing speed, 200mph) both parties knew what was up and knew the risks. " Your closing speed is BS, the two parties maybe aware of the risks but I doubt the DZO would be thrilled to know you were doing head to heads. As for getting away with it, watch the golden nights track diamond film and then you might appreciate the risks a little more. If you dont check with the jumper whether they are a tandem master or otherwise how do you know when they are going to turn? I enjoy occasional buzzes but if I was under canopy would not want to have to be watching for a wingsuiter coming in unexpected to me so i can understand why people get pissed off. It'll only take 1 screw up and we'll find more load seperation, ask before you buzz. Its also easy to mistake canopy colours on big loads so you think your heading for your buddy and your not.Dont just talk about it, Do it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #17 January 15, 2006 Playing devil's advocate here, I will point out (as others have) that distance (proximity) definitely matters. Hell, if I flew my Spectre 170 close enough to a tandem, I would expect him to be pissed. Which is worse... a wingsuit flying by a tandem canopy 200 ft away, or a highly loaded Velocity (arguably the same amount of control as a wingsuit, and close to the same speed) flying by at 100 ft? Which would probably be received better by most TM's? This is a big part of the issue, that many people do not know a lot about wingsuits, and we do have to be sensitive to that. The bottom line is that we shouldn't be near canopies, but sometimes the flight plan goes wrong and we are. If I see a canopy somewhere ahead of me, I will turn to avoid it, and while I wouldn't call it a buzz, I don't get a mile away from it either.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badenhop 0 #18 January 15, 2006 QuoteThat guy definitely buzzed too low. Hello, Is that too low for you, or too low for her? Avery================================== I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton http://www.AveryBadenhop.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #19 January 15, 2006 Seems like a special case of the "big sky" effect, ie, the incorrect presumption that the sky is big enough for all of us and little care needs to be directed to avoiding collisions with other things.The issue is control...since the wingsuit was going much faster, the canopy pilot probably felt out of control in that situation. It's easy for me to understand why the canopy pilot was upset...especially for a jumper with a lot of experience, displeasure at the sense of an out of control situation is probably redoubled. Even if the wingsuit pilot was in full control the whole time, failure to communicate this in advance with the canopy pilot is the root of the misunderstanding, imo.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #20 January 15, 2006 Quote...I doubt the DZO would be thrilled... Looking at his profile, I somehow doubt there was a DZO to be thrilled or otherwise.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #21 January 15, 2006 But I think a lot of non-wingsuit jumpers really don't understand how much flying control you have in a wingsuit. They get very paranoid about you being anywhere near their airspace, the same as they would if someone was doing a normal skydive right on top of them. I'd imagine that if you buzzed or do a flyby on one of them, you could easily cause grief for other wingsuiters at your DZ. I think the other side of that coin is having some wet behind the ears 250 jump wonder telling me as a 4000 jump + TI how much "control" he/she has. Same rules apply as in all skydiving, get known, and have your skills know gradually, and things will happen smoother. When I show up at a new DZ, I fully expect to have to "prove" myself in more ways than one before people will truct my abilities like they do at the "home" dz. BTW, I have over 400 wingsuit jumps on just about every wingsuit type (except the jii-wing damnit!) and I owuld NEVER buzz someone without their knowlage.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #22 January 15, 2006 "Your closing speed is BS, the two parties maybe aware of the risks but I doubt the DZO would be thrilled to know you were doing head to heads. As for getting away with it, watch the golden nights track diamond film and then you might appreciate the risks a little more. " i assume you mean the one where the guys track into eachother, taking off limbs and killing one of them. That was an ugly day, and i drink to the deceased. but they knew the risks, and they paid the price for cutting it too close. i heard they planned for 20' clearence. thats a big hole to fill. and a wingsuit/canopy have a hell of a lot more maneuverability than tracking. from doing head to heads... that is dangerous. so is buzzing at all. hell, wingsuiting is dangerous. but we all decide our own level of risk and involvment. Both parties knew the risks, they are very simple, if somebody screws up, both people probably die. as for closing speed... Vampire 1...downward speed..50mph, forward speed of 100mph. Some irresponsible small canopy loaded high (i think it was a velocity) flies at 40-95 mph, depending on the way its flown. so forgive me, closing speed of 150ish mph. it was sick either way. i will edit. I would not buzz irresponsible close to a tandem because A-its hard to coordinate, tandem canopies are often random in color and B-the student probably wouldnt understand the risks, and his life is in jeapordy as well. and as for DZO, well, i wont get into that... lets just say it was all good. AND ONE MORE THING... on dumping low... I do not have any wingsuit base jumps, but i am a BASE jumper and i use BASE style canopies and techniques when i wingsuit. (loaded .7/1, 7cell, freepacked, mesh slider, 36" PC.) and i dont dump above 2500',nor do i close up the suit when i deploy. so i lose about 200' at the most after i decide to deploy. none of this is illegal, unsafe to me, or against the SIM When i am alone and not going to bug my DZO, well, i wont even tell you about that kinda low... You shouldnt tell people they are too low when you have no idea what they are doing with their own jumping. maybe you should word it like "i wouldnt pull that low with my current gear setup and experience level" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #23 January 15, 2006 When you are jumping at any USPA-affiliated DZ, senior licensed jumpers are expected to deploy above 2,000 feet ... at CSPA-affiliated DZs: above 2200 feet. Deploy any canopy lower than that, and you risk being banned. We do not need to repeat the low-pull contests of the 1960s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #24 January 15, 2006 this of couse, all assuming one is jumping at a USPA drop zone, and that one cares about an organising body at all. and 2000' is a good safe altitude to deploy with the kind of gear we use. and i get no flak about it at whatever USPA dzs i jump at, where i follow the rules because i respect the reasons they are there. dump at 5000'? huh? thats almost 30 seconds wasted if your doing it right... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badenhop 0 #25 January 15, 2006 Hello Calvin, We are in agreement. The language in the BSR actually says container open @ 2000'. Not all of us live as if the FAA or the USPA are really in charge. Really, people getting all sweaty about my deployment altitude. When I jump my V1, 5000' feet is where I ask to get out. Then I fly for my minute, then deploy. DZO seems to be okay with that. In re-reading the original post and reflecting, I realize that: SENIOR AFF INSTRUCTOR + COMPETE + WIN GOLD = PISSED. Bummer. I got into the sport to have fun. God bless you, Avery================================== I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton http://www.AveryBadenhop.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
