Trae 1 #1 January 3, 2006 At a recent event a fellow wingsuiter was grounded after experiencing some exit instability. This mature gentleman was a super keen flyer and experienced skydiver that had some physical limitations given his two artificial hips. He approached a BMI for advice and ended up being grounded. This was inexplicable at the time as the guy had been flying for a couple of days with no problems and lots of fun.....just an occasional flip on exit . Instead of working on the exit problem with the guy the BMI grounded him. This caused a few of us to seriously loose respect for that particular BMI. At the same time this BMI guy was introducing low jump number women into his little flock. From the outside it was obvious what was going on. Somehow this BMI guy was managing to sideline experienced skydivers while at the same time introducing girls to his harem. The same BMI also had a few tricks at the manifest as a few of us other blokes found we were being dropped off loads at the last moment without explanation. machiavellian wingsuiting ego trippers..............has BMI gone to the dogs or what??????? PUKEWORTHY. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #2 January 3, 2006 Feel free to PM me with all the details as I am positive you have left some of the extenuating circumstances out of your post. I am curious to hear your side of the story."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #3 January 3, 2006 Quotemachiavellian wingsuiting ego trippers..............has BMI gone to the dogs or what??????? A BMI, unless he/she is an S&TA, DZM or DZO, really has no authority to GROUND ANYONE. However, if the mature gentlemen was flying a demo suit that the BMI provided to him, they have every right to take the suit away. It sounds like there could be more information to this story unfortunatly. Care to post it? I do hope it will all work out in the end and everyone will be flying again. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #4 January 3, 2006 QuoteA BMI, unless he/she is an S&TA, DZM or DZO, really has no authority to GROUND ANYONE. but a well respected gentleman/woman can lay the respectful verbal smackdown to beat in somecommon sense. I also think there is some missing info to this story....Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #5 January 3, 2006 Quotebut a well respected gentleman/woman can lay the respectful verbal smackdown to beat in somecommon sense. You dont even need a to be a BMI to do that...... Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #6 January 3, 2006 QuoteYou dont even need a to be a BMI to do that...... but the "well respected gentleman/woman" is the hard partLeroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #7 January 3, 2006 Quotebut the "well respected gentleman/woman" is the hard part Respect is only earned when given. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #8 January 3, 2006 Quote has BMI gone to the dogs or what??????? PUKEWORTHY. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hecy68 0 #9 January 3, 2006 last week i saw an older gentleman told he was too dangerous to fly his s3 .i personaly think he just needed some serious tutouring .but on the athor hand he was sold an s3 for his first wingsuit ,go figure... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites medusa 0 #10 January 3, 2006 If he is allready "Dangerous" and inestable on exit, you should give him a regular skyflyer, that will fix the problem! .Medusa Get Killed or Die Trying! Patent pending ATFK15456 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #11 January 4, 2006 in reply 2 "It sounds like there could be more information to this story unfortunatly. Care to post it? " .............. uh huh... the main missing bits are the names of the people involved. The grounded guy needed help not discouragement. The BMi's didn't display the necessary instructing skills including the BMi CI. It's my guess that a bit of a personality clash may have exacorbated the situation. Being close to this happening made it unpleasant for others as well as the 'victim'. as far as I know the g.guy was flying his own suit. Other low level behaviour noticed from a couple of BMi's(one a CI )-- behind your back put downs . it's not real nice hearing wrong/bad things about people you've been jumping quite happily and successfully with. -- taking over dirt dives organised by others (and stuffing up the dive ) and somehow being allowed to do it again and again always blaming some poor sucker. --their girlfriends taking you out and publicly blaming you for it at the debrief. --confusing conflicting instructions on jump run eg constant changing of circuit directions and exit orders -- very little actual relative work skills ( I know some of these BMI guys were never any good at relative work ) --blame shifting -even with video to prove otherwise it was difficult to pin the real culprits down -- -- the BMi load organiser couldn't be found after any particularly bad flock to determine what was happening . -- In amoungst this bird-crap some good flocks were still achieved ...... after kneecapping the BMI birdgod shyts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #12 January 4, 2006 You listed a bunch of gripes but still haven't given any information to substantiate what you claim. How about giving a little bit of information that is useful like where/when did this happen and what were the circumstances that led up to this event? Until you give some real details it sound like you have a personal issue with whom ever you are talking about. If you're going to throw accusations out there like you have, you might as well throw it all out there."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #13 January 4, 2006 Quoteuh huh... the main missing bits are the names of the people involved. The grounded guy needed help not discouragement. The BMi's didn't display the necessary instructing skills including the BMi CI. It's my guess that a bit of a personality clash may have exacorbated the situation. Being close to this happening made it unpleasant for others as well as the 'victim'. as far as I know the g.guy was flying his own suit. Other low level behaviour noticed from a couple of BMi's(one a CI )-- behind your back put downs . it's not real nice hearing wrong/bad things about people you've been jumping quite happily and successfully with. -- taking over dirt dives organised by others (and stuffing up the dive ) and somehow being allowed to do it again and again always blaming some poor sucker. --their girlfriends taking you out and publicly blaming you for it at the debrief. --confusing conflicting instructions on jump run eg constant changing of circuit directions and exit orders -- very little actual relative work skills ( I know some of these BMI guys were never any good at relative work ) --blame shifting -even with video to prove otherwise it was difficult to pin the real culprits down -- -- the BMi load organiser couldn't be found after any particularly bad flock to determine what was happening . -- In amoungst this bird-crap some good flocks were still achieved ...... after kneecapping the BMI birdgod shyts. Hmmm, sounds like you had more them just the one complaint in regard to your original post. Maybe you could just not jump with this particular BMI or group, and try making your own flock? With your comment, "machiavellian wingsuiting ego trippers..............has BMI gone to the dogs or what??????? ", it sounds as though your blaming all BMI's for acting in a way that you don't think is right, and I can assure you this isn't the case. Maybe it would be better to take this up on a personal level with them? I'm sorry for your bad experience and your welcome to come and fly with me anytime. I have PLENTY of RW, organizing and debriefing experience. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #14 January 4, 2006 in reply to "If you're going to throw accusations out there like you have, you might as well throw it all out there. " _________________________________________ It's obvious you're an all or nothing type of guy. I'd prefer to discuss the issues and gripes I've raised rather than making it all super personal by naming the BMi ego trippers I've observed. In my experience such behaviour as I've desrcibed is not uncommon in skydiving . It appears to me that a large number of BMi's seem more interested in blowing their own trumpet than actually doing well planned skydives that involve team work. The overpowering feeling I was left with after a few days in their company was that the wingsuit experience was all about a few personalities rather than the flying and fun. eg it felt to me like " do as I say" " get in line " "speak when spoken to " Hero worshipping is so old and over for me...especially when the hero dives suck so biggly. It's all about them ... not enough about US. Has any-one else had such ego-centric issues to get out of the way so good skydiving can happen? If so how did you deal with it? besides emmigrating .... By the way my little "gripes" aren't accusations they are observations .... and from talking with others not just MY personal views either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #15 January 4, 2006 QuoteI'd prefer to discuss the issues and gripes I've raised rather than making it all super personal Well if you have an issue why not take it up with the person? It seems to me you have an issue with that person. QuoteIn my experience such behaviour as I've desrcibed is not uncommon in skydiving It appears to me that a large number of BMi's seem more interested in blowing their own trumpet than actually doing well planned skydives that involve team work. And you know this because you've met all the BMIs or are you basing this on your limited experience? If you have issue with this person then I think Ed gave you some good advice. Find a different group to flock with. You're more than welcome to jump with me and those I jump with when the opportunity presents itself. But lets get back to the original question you posed. What was the outcome, was this person grounded and if so why? There has to be more to it than a few unstable exits.Who did the grounding?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #16 January 6, 2006 I never saw the use for BMIs in the first place. i mean seriously... what do they do? pull the BMIs certificate for a month, and put it on his perminant official BMI record, at the center for BMI malpractice investigation headquarters in DC. ---not an attack, while i understand the need to teach people to fly a wingsuit, there is NOTHING a BMI can do in the air other than observe and later give pointers. i never had one. just a freind who happened to have a GTI that fit me. now i have 3 suits, and would teach anybody who was willing and able to learn. who the hell gave BMIs the authority to ground somebody? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #17 January 6, 2006 Quotethere is NOTHING a BMI can do in the air other than observe and later give pointers. i never had one. That is an incorrect statement. A BMI can can give in air corrections such as body position and heading corrections to a student during a first flight. Likewise a BMI can provide in air coaching to an experienced wing suit pilot looking to improve their skills. Coupled with an air to air communications system, the learning curve increases exponentially. Had a BMI taught you, you would know this to be true."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 0 #18 January 6, 2006 QuoteThat is an incorrect statement. A BMI can can give in air corrections such as body position and heading corrections to a student during a first flight. Likewise a BMI can provide in air coaching to an experienced wing suit pilot looking to improve their skills. Coupled with an air to air communications system, the learning curve increases exponentially. Had a BMI taught you, you would know this to be true. Correct. At Eloy last week, there was a student who started flying straight down jumprun, which would not have been good. I managed to fly under the student and correct their heading by 9k feet. www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #19 January 6, 2006 Aye... i stand corrected, and rightfully so. i also agree that i could have learned to fly better/farther/faster if i had an experienced pilot flying with me... but i did not have to pay for my instructors slot plus 50 bucks for groundschool (or whatever it costs) I know there are some BMI/phoenix/matter instructors that give free training, but my dropzone was cursed with the most annoying butch of an actual BMI, that knew nothing about wingsuits or how they flew, and charged a lot of money and was very exclusive to who she taught. I outflew her in my GTI on my 10th wingsuit jump. But i still say you pull his liscense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #20 January 6, 2006 Quote...there is NOTHING a BMI can do in the air other than observe and later give pointers. You're not the only person who thinks this. Go read up on the Phoenix Fly instructional program, and you can see that there are widely varying opinions on the effectiveness of inflight instruction. Note that I'm not expressing a view on one way or another being the "right" way--just noting that a variety of views on this exist even amongst wingsuit manufacturers. Edit to add link to PFI program description. Note that the presence of an instructor on the first flight is at the student's option.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #21 January 6, 2006 in reply to "I never saw the use for BMIs in the first place. i mean seriously... what do they do? " ............................. Some of them do very little indeed except for feathering their own nest. I've noticed that there is a tendency for some/most to get in the wingsuit world just to have serious fun but some bring the most wobbly BS from the relative work ,freeflying , tandem or even style and accuracy worlds with them. I particularly dislike the ones that never learnt to fly properly in flatty relative world and then just cause they've got 100 wingsuit flights think they've somehow learnt to get relative. These types can waste a lot of your money while you pay them to learn what they're trying to teach you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites birdynamnam 28 #22 January 6, 2006 Correct me if I am wrong, but the primary job of the BMI is to teach non wingsuiters how to get started flying wingsuit safely. I think you would agree that any BMI that you know of can do that (even the ones that you obviously dislike). That said, a BMI having say 500 skydives and 3 years in the sport, is generally not as skilled as a BMI having 5000 skydives and you might have a point there. The BMI with 500 skydives might not be an expert in flocking issues, only he/she is skilled enough to do first flight courses. Learning to flock comes by participating in Wingsuit boogies, I guess... I myself have 150 ws jumps. I don't have more flocking skills than any other ws'er with 150 jumps and I think of myself (being a BMI) as one who is a kind of "basic" instructor that can teach others to try out wingsuiting enjoying and surviving it. Is this okay with you Trae, or should I be even more humble... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #23 January 6, 2006 there you go! attaching jump numbers to this shit again! im out. but i really want to know: WHO THE HELL GAVE A BMI THE AUTHORITY TO GROUND SOMEBODY? ////////// -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #24 January 6, 2006 "Go read up on the Phoenix Fly instructional program" thats why i got a V1, a bad ass suit from a company that believes in progression. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites birdynamnam 28 #25 January 6, 2006 Calvin, I wasn't responding to the grounding issue but to the experience level issue........ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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medusa 0 #10 January 3, 2006 If he is allready "Dangerous" and inestable on exit, you should give him a regular skyflyer, that will fix the problem! .Medusa Get Killed or Die Trying! Patent pending ATFK15456 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #11 January 4, 2006 in reply 2 "It sounds like there could be more information to this story unfortunatly. Care to post it? " .............. uh huh... the main missing bits are the names of the people involved. The grounded guy needed help not discouragement. The BMi's didn't display the necessary instructing skills including the BMi CI. It's my guess that a bit of a personality clash may have exacorbated the situation. Being close to this happening made it unpleasant for others as well as the 'victim'. as far as I know the g.guy was flying his own suit. Other low level behaviour noticed from a couple of BMi's(one a CI )-- behind your back put downs . it's not real nice hearing wrong/bad things about people you've been jumping quite happily and successfully with. -- taking over dirt dives organised by others (and stuffing up the dive ) and somehow being allowed to do it again and again always blaming some poor sucker. --their girlfriends taking you out and publicly blaming you for it at the debrief. --confusing conflicting instructions on jump run eg constant changing of circuit directions and exit orders -- very little actual relative work skills ( I know some of these BMI guys were never any good at relative work ) --blame shifting -even with video to prove otherwise it was difficult to pin the real culprits down -- -- the BMi load organiser couldn't be found after any particularly bad flock to determine what was happening . -- In amoungst this bird-crap some good flocks were still achieved ...... after kneecapping the BMI birdgod shyts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #12 January 4, 2006 You listed a bunch of gripes but still haven't given any information to substantiate what you claim. How about giving a little bit of information that is useful like where/when did this happen and what were the circumstances that led up to this event? Until you give some real details it sound like you have a personal issue with whom ever you are talking about. If you're going to throw accusations out there like you have, you might as well throw it all out there."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #13 January 4, 2006 Quoteuh huh... the main missing bits are the names of the people involved. The grounded guy needed help not discouragement. The BMi's didn't display the necessary instructing skills including the BMi CI. It's my guess that a bit of a personality clash may have exacorbated the situation. Being close to this happening made it unpleasant for others as well as the 'victim'. as far as I know the g.guy was flying his own suit. Other low level behaviour noticed from a couple of BMi's(one a CI )-- behind your back put downs . it's not real nice hearing wrong/bad things about people you've been jumping quite happily and successfully with. -- taking over dirt dives organised by others (and stuffing up the dive ) and somehow being allowed to do it again and again always blaming some poor sucker. --their girlfriends taking you out and publicly blaming you for it at the debrief. --confusing conflicting instructions on jump run eg constant changing of circuit directions and exit orders -- very little actual relative work skills ( I know some of these BMI guys were never any good at relative work ) --blame shifting -even with video to prove otherwise it was difficult to pin the real culprits down -- -- the BMi load organiser couldn't be found after any particularly bad flock to determine what was happening . -- In amoungst this bird-crap some good flocks were still achieved ...... after kneecapping the BMI birdgod shyts. Hmmm, sounds like you had more them just the one complaint in regard to your original post. Maybe you could just not jump with this particular BMI or group, and try making your own flock? With your comment, "machiavellian wingsuiting ego trippers..............has BMI gone to the dogs or what??????? ", it sounds as though your blaming all BMI's for acting in a way that you don't think is right, and I can assure you this isn't the case. Maybe it would be better to take this up on a personal level with them? I'm sorry for your bad experience and your welcome to come and fly with me anytime. I have PLENTY of RW, organizing and debriefing experience. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #14 January 4, 2006 in reply to "If you're going to throw accusations out there like you have, you might as well throw it all out there. " _________________________________________ It's obvious you're an all or nothing type of guy. I'd prefer to discuss the issues and gripes I've raised rather than making it all super personal by naming the BMi ego trippers I've observed. In my experience such behaviour as I've desrcibed is not uncommon in skydiving . It appears to me that a large number of BMi's seem more interested in blowing their own trumpet than actually doing well planned skydives that involve team work. The overpowering feeling I was left with after a few days in their company was that the wingsuit experience was all about a few personalities rather than the flying and fun. eg it felt to me like " do as I say" " get in line " "speak when spoken to " Hero worshipping is so old and over for me...especially when the hero dives suck so biggly. It's all about them ... not enough about US. Has any-one else had such ego-centric issues to get out of the way so good skydiving can happen? If so how did you deal with it? besides emmigrating .... By the way my little "gripes" aren't accusations they are observations .... and from talking with others not just MY personal views either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #15 January 4, 2006 QuoteI'd prefer to discuss the issues and gripes I've raised rather than making it all super personal Well if you have an issue why not take it up with the person? It seems to me you have an issue with that person. QuoteIn my experience such behaviour as I've desrcibed is not uncommon in skydiving It appears to me that a large number of BMi's seem more interested in blowing their own trumpet than actually doing well planned skydives that involve team work. And you know this because you've met all the BMIs or are you basing this on your limited experience? If you have issue with this person then I think Ed gave you some good advice. Find a different group to flock with. You're more than welcome to jump with me and those I jump with when the opportunity presents itself. But lets get back to the original question you posed. What was the outcome, was this person grounded and if so why? There has to be more to it than a few unstable exits.Who did the grounding?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #16 January 6, 2006 I never saw the use for BMIs in the first place. i mean seriously... what do they do? pull the BMIs certificate for a month, and put it on his perminant official BMI record, at the center for BMI malpractice investigation headquarters in DC. ---not an attack, while i understand the need to teach people to fly a wingsuit, there is NOTHING a BMI can do in the air other than observe and later give pointers. i never had one. just a freind who happened to have a GTI that fit me. now i have 3 suits, and would teach anybody who was willing and able to learn. who the hell gave BMIs the authority to ground somebody? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #17 January 6, 2006 Quotethere is NOTHING a BMI can do in the air other than observe and later give pointers. i never had one. That is an incorrect statement. A BMI can can give in air corrections such as body position and heading corrections to a student during a first flight. Likewise a BMI can provide in air coaching to an experienced wing suit pilot looking to improve their skills. Coupled with an air to air communications system, the learning curve increases exponentially. Had a BMI taught you, you would know this to be true."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #18 January 6, 2006 QuoteThat is an incorrect statement. A BMI can can give in air corrections such as body position and heading corrections to a student during a first flight. Likewise a BMI can provide in air coaching to an experienced wing suit pilot looking to improve their skills. Coupled with an air to air communications system, the learning curve increases exponentially. Had a BMI taught you, you would know this to be true. Correct. At Eloy last week, there was a student who started flying straight down jumprun, which would not have been good. I managed to fly under the student and correct their heading by 9k feet. www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #19 January 6, 2006 Aye... i stand corrected, and rightfully so. i also agree that i could have learned to fly better/farther/faster if i had an experienced pilot flying with me... but i did not have to pay for my instructors slot plus 50 bucks for groundschool (or whatever it costs) I know there are some BMI/phoenix/matter instructors that give free training, but my dropzone was cursed with the most annoying butch of an actual BMI, that knew nothing about wingsuits or how they flew, and charged a lot of money and was very exclusive to who she taught. I outflew her in my GTI on my 10th wingsuit jump. But i still say you pull his liscense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #20 January 6, 2006 Quote...there is NOTHING a BMI can do in the air other than observe and later give pointers. You're not the only person who thinks this. Go read up on the Phoenix Fly instructional program, and you can see that there are widely varying opinions on the effectiveness of inflight instruction. Note that I'm not expressing a view on one way or another being the "right" way--just noting that a variety of views on this exist even amongst wingsuit manufacturers. Edit to add link to PFI program description. Note that the presence of an instructor on the first flight is at the student's option.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #21 January 6, 2006 in reply to "I never saw the use for BMIs in the first place. i mean seriously... what do they do? " ............................. Some of them do very little indeed except for feathering their own nest. I've noticed that there is a tendency for some/most to get in the wingsuit world just to have serious fun but some bring the most wobbly BS from the relative work ,freeflying , tandem or even style and accuracy worlds with them. I particularly dislike the ones that never learnt to fly properly in flatty relative world and then just cause they've got 100 wingsuit flights think they've somehow learnt to get relative. These types can waste a lot of your money while you pay them to learn what they're trying to teach you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdynamnam 28 #22 January 6, 2006 Correct me if I am wrong, but the primary job of the BMI is to teach non wingsuiters how to get started flying wingsuit safely. I think you would agree that any BMI that you know of can do that (even the ones that you obviously dislike). That said, a BMI having say 500 skydives and 3 years in the sport, is generally not as skilled as a BMI having 5000 skydives and you might have a point there. The BMI with 500 skydives might not be an expert in flocking issues, only he/she is skilled enough to do first flight courses. Learning to flock comes by participating in Wingsuit boogies, I guess... I myself have 150 ws jumps. I don't have more flocking skills than any other ws'er with 150 jumps and I think of myself (being a BMI) as one who is a kind of "basic" instructor that can teach others to try out wingsuiting enjoying and surviving it. Is this okay with you Trae, or should I be even more humble... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #23 January 6, 2006 there you go! attaching jump numbers to this shit again! im out. but i really want to know: WHO THE HELL GAVE A BMI THE AUTHORITY TO GROUND SOMEBODY? ////////// -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #24 January 6, 2006 "Go read up on the Phoenix Fly instructional program" thats why i got a V1, a bad ass suit from a company that believes in progression. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdynamnam 28 #25 January 6, 2006 Calvin, I wasn't responding to the grounding issue but to the experience level issue........ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
