0
Trae

When would you ground a wingsuiter?

Recommended Posts

Quote

I particularly dislike the ones that never learnt to fly properly in flatty relative world and then just cause they've got 100 wingsuit flights think they've somehow learnt to get relative.



Someone please enlighten me, (I'm being serious, I think I don't get it) I'm probably wrong here, because I just don't understand what a flatty relative world has to do with making a good wingsuiter?

I have the same amount of jumps doing RW as freeflying, so I'm not partial to either discipline. Both fly relative to each other, actually all disciplines fly relative to each other. Actually it seems like 'flat' RW has nothing to do with wingsuit flying. In my region anyway, freeflyers are by far the majority of the people who track, and that's the only thing remotely similiar to wingsuit flying, IMHO. Someone help out this ditz(me:)) who doesn't get the flatty relative world competence relating to wingsuit skill....?

Thanks

"I know it's friday night, but come on. Surely there's something better to do than yell at people on the internet?" - Tom A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


It appears to me that a large number of BMi's seem more interested in blowing their own trumpet than actually doing well planned skydives that involve team work.

If some big headed BMi.....

......why do these types feel they have to BS there way through the air.? If they aren't humble enough to openly admit they can learn from others then how did they get so far? The aura of imagined perfection looks silly when you see the rest



WOW!!! WTF does this have to do with wingsuits? It started out a wingsuit question, but it is really an 'improper behavior' question.

This is the same behavior exhibited by freefly gods, RW gods, swooping gods, crew dog gods, what-ever. C'mon people!! There are self proclaimed skygods in every single discipline and the words above can be used to reference any of them!

The title of this thread was thought provoking. When would you ground a wingsuiter? Sadly, the rest of it was a waste of the last 30 minutes.

BEGIN RANT: I have read a bunch of political bs that is petty. While sad and unfortunate, it is a part of our sport that will ALWAYS be around due to the personality types our sport attracts. There have been a lot of great points made, I am not picking on the previous replies, but they are all excellent points that have been made before.

This 'BMi" somehow "grounded" a bird for instability, or more likely convinced the guy he was grounded when he wasn't because obviously as stated above a BMI has no authority to ground a jumper. This is something that every skydiver should know. Those who reference their SIM and don't just believe every word they're told by someone with more experience just because they act like they know what they're talking about. You are responsible to learn on your own, do you believe everything someone with more experience says? I know sometimes people can bully or bluff, but you have to listen to them and talk to others and draw your own conclusions. Don't take a skygods word as law, especially if it's ruining your boogie and/or your fellow flocker's weekend. By the time we are ready to start jumping wingsuits, we're not meek little students anymore, we are independant and can and have to think on our own, to stay in the game at the very least.
/END RANT

This was not intented as a rant to any specific person, just in general, and I apologize for my mood. I will post the bs that I'm actually pissed about in the next post, where a wingsuiter did get grounded, by someone in authority, for something stupid. That incident is why I'm in a mood, and there is no room here for my mood, so I apologize.

"I know it's friday night, but come on. Surely there's something better to do than yell at people on the internet?" - Tom A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If you are a reckless jumper (or pilot), then eventually you will be censured and/or have your ratings pulled.



Calvin19 can jump out of his and his friends private aircraft, somewhere that is not a dropzone. I think that's what he means when he says he will never be grounded. If he's grounded by a DZO (or other authority) he'll just go home, go flying with a friend somewhere remote, and get out of the plane.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, I was all psyched for some midnight, ringing in the New Year flocking last week, and there was some confusion from manifest about how many and what time these night loads were going up. The day went on, and all was supposed to be made clearer later in the day.

End of daylight comes and goes, and night jump briefing commences.

We get some bad news, and it starts a series of events that just sucks:

1. The pilots are all tired and exhausted from flying high(er) altitude loads all day, and only one pilot is willing to fly night loads.
Ok, no biggie, and...?

2. He is too tired to make it to midnight, so the loads are consolidated into two back-to-backs immediately after the briefing(7-ish). No one is allowed to go on both unless they have two rigs.

Well, poop.

So much for ringing in the New Year, being in the air at or close to midnight.

Not many are upset, they are happy to get started drinking earlier anyway.

Then the little flock I thought we were going to have started breaking up into smaller-ways. My thinking: If on seperate loads, ok, thats safer, but on the same load.... I dunno, what do you guys think? Is it safer to have 4 birds exit at once and coordinate openings, or two groups of two and who knows where the hell the other group is in the sky?!? I thought better of we were all together, but oh well, I am less experienced..... I haven't done the night bird thing before, they must know something I don't, plus you can't force someone to flock if they don't want to!

So, oh well, I'm thinking, this sucks, not at midnight, not as many of us, only one night jump, poop, not nearly as much fun as I had thought. And I drove 4 hours just for mostly this night thingy! To be perfectly fair, there were some additional factors to my trip, seeing old friends and flying with good flockers,etc. But a big motivating factor was how cool these midnight jumps sounded!

Then I had to listen to this one chick saying over and over how crazy we were doing night wingsuit jumps. "Just insane, it is, why is anyone letting them do that?!?" She just kept at it. I finally had to walk away. I got my rig set up somewhere else.

So then we are all geared up, birdies decked out with chemlights, I started getting excited again.

Approaching the loading area, I saw a birdie arguing (quite loudly) with the night jump organizer. It sounded like birdie had been grounded. Well, I figured maybe the O suspected birdie of drinking, cause he had stated it was his perogative to kick off anyone he suspected of drinking. Our birdie organizer told angry birdie to calm down, and so he walked away. I thought, jeez that sucks to get all dressed up and spend all that time briefing and strobe/chemlight setting up and not get to go. I wondered if he had been drinking.

While loading the plane, I asked what happened and someone said "they consolidated the back-to-back loads, now they're only flying one load, but they had too many people and had to kick off 3!"

Those 3 happened to be birds! WTF!!

I thought, this dz is going downhill. Since when can a huge dz with 3 planes not keep a pilot in reserve, maybe start flying at noon or later, for an event that is surely a big draw for many people to have come? Why are these high(er) altitude loads getting preference over new years night jumps? After all, it is only New Years once a year. This just bites booty.

Well, I felt bad for those guys, really bad. You don't just kick people off loads. I didn't blame the pilot though, the dude was tired. I know how pilots always get the short end of the deal. At least this pilot said he'd stay, not like the others..... (Please know I'm not dissing the other pilots)

So there I am in the cockpit, sitting on, covering and smushing my chemlights so as to not blind the pilot when I hear him say maybe no one is going up.

Hmm? My ears perk up. None of us?

The runway lights won't come on, he says

Is it the airport or the button on the plane? I ask

The airport's been having this problem apparently. I stare at the birdie load O in gape-mouthed amazement. I can't believe it. WTF is happening here?

C'est la vie. So now you guys know why I was a little cranky about this thread. Sorry again.

But doesn't that just suck?

Oh and BTW, the manifest chicka charged me twice for strobe light rental. Supposed to be an extra $5 per night, not $5 per load,(I was initially on two loads) and during the refund process I thankfully noticed I only got $5 back and not the $10 I had been charged earlier. I momentarily wasn't believed, thank god I have some references there to my honesty. :S

"I know it's friday night, but come on. Surely there's something better to do than yell at people on the internet?" - Tom A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Welcome to the world of night jumps!
Hee!
Hee!
... don't know why it is, but every time skydivers sign up for night jumps, they forget everything they know about day jumping and vastly complicate the issue.

My first night jump was my easiest: 1,000 foot, static-line out of a CC-130 with a rucksack, rifle and snowshoes. We had a low overcast, so the city lights of Edmonton were bouncing off the clouds and we had a great view of the DZ. I landed in a snowdrift so soft and deep that I couldn't PLF.
I have never understood why skydvers make such a big fuss about night jumps?????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

some students need some help, perfect students get a smile and a thumbs up, which is a hand signal BTW.



Yup, it means raise your hips in my book. Another reason for standardization, if we're assigning different meanings to the same hand signals.




You guys are correcting each other's body position on every jump? <<< I took this part of your post as humor and sarcasm and responded with same. But I get the vibe that your reply is VERY serious because its lacking laughy faces.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In your last two posts you've gone from the position that the BMI program is totally unnecessary as any skilled wingsuit flyer can do their job,
So which is it? Are trained wingsuit instructors totally unnecessary (your first argument), or do you have specific problems with specific programs that exist (a different issue altogether)?




I have a problem with the idea that it is only through a certified BMI that you will find quality instruction.

I don't have so much a problem with the program as much as I have a problem with select individual BMIs that act in a way that casts the negative light, like in the incedent that created this tread. There have been more than just a few isolated events. But if the grief created by abuse of the program can't be rectified the world of wingsuiting can do without the BMI program. Don't kid yourself for a second that it can't.

So you want me to tell you what a BMI can do that very few others can?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, this is why I gave up wingsuits and went back to freeflying.

In the freefly world you never get kicked off a load, the coaches are never asshole know-it-alls, and they all treat the young and up commer women jumpers with care and the utmost respect. You'll never see an attractive girl put into dangerous freeflying situations just because some skygod wants a piece of ass.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


I have a problem with select individual BMIs that act in a way that casts the negative light, like in the incedent that created this tread.



What are you talking about??
We don't know if this hole tread is truth, or if it is a fragment of someones imagination! ;)
.
Medusa

Get Killed or Die Trying!
Patent pending ATFK15456

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Yeah, this is why I gave up wingsuits and went back to freeflying.

In the freefly world you never get kicked off a load, the coaches are never asshole know-it-alls, and they all treat the young and up commer women jumpers with care and the utmost respect. You'll never see an attractive girl put into dangerous freeflying situations just because some skygod wants a piece of ass.



Come on dude, is this for real??

There is no other discipline with more skygoods than Freeflying.

And I can assure you that in more that one occasion, attractive girls have being put in dangerous situations by some guy that wants some pece of ass eighter in Freeflying, RW, BASE Etc.... But you don’t have to go ahead and generalist and blame the entire discipline because of and isolated event or a single person.
Don’t you think??[:/]
Medusa

Get Killed or Die Trying!
Patent pending ATFK15456

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"ratings pulled"

Oh dear no!, not my A liscense! What will i do?!


I am not a reckless pilot, i would never put somebody elses life in danger that had not expressed they were willing to go there, even if they asked, i would not bring other people in my plane when i was doing something i consider, well, not normal flying;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What are you talking about??
We don't know if this hole tread is truth, or if it is a fragment of someones imagination! ;)
.



I use it as an example, there have been other events. There are some complaints that never even make it to discussion on the wingsuit forum. Are they all fragments of imagination?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally I would be embarrassed to be found argueing over something as silly as whether quality instruction can be found outside a standardized instructor program. I'm continually surprised to see how long this thread has survived, apparently people have way too much time on their hands during the off-season.
"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

So you want me to tell you what a BMI can do that very few others can?



I answered your question directly in post #41. I said "not much". (I never made that claim either, FWIW)

However, the point remains that flying ability does not equal training ability! What can an AFF instructor do that the best RW flyers cannot do? Does this mean any good RW flyer is qualified to take prospective skydivers on their first freefalls?
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

So you want me to tell you what a BMI can do that very few others can?




What a BMI can do that few others can not is get access to a boogie load of demo suits, like boxes and boxes of em. At least until its time to ship them off to the next BMI down the line for the next boogie. Concentrate on getting them to first time flyers and its a pretty good program.

Load organizing and wingsuit promotion go hand in hand with that for the flockers that have gone beyond the FFC. Too much more than that is just simple "empire building".

I, btw, agree with you on the fact that being a good flyer doesn't make one a good instructor. But for the record I would have to state the fundamentals of methodical instruction isn't a BMI exclusive capability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Personally I would be embarrassed to be found argueing over something as silly as whether quality instruction can be found outside a standardized instructor program.




Well if you are going to be in this sport you gotta be tuff ( they tell me ) so you can't get embarrassed easily. This isn't the ballet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I, btw, agree with you on the fact that being a good flyer doesn't make one a good instructor. But for the record I would have to state the fundamentals of methodical instruction isn't a BMI exclusive capability.



I agree with you on your point too. I'll also admit there are difficulties in having the instructor rating associated with manufacturers, because of obvious reasons (although it is done in other areas, tandem skydiving in specific). The only alternative I can think of is letting the USPA handle it, but I'm not sure if anybody would like that either. I'm small enough and humble enough that at this time I don't want to try to affect change in the wingsuit community at large, so I am just accepting things the way they are. As I stated before, obtaining my BMI rating has nicely augmented the experience of taking people on first flights (which I was able to do without the rating), and as you pointed out it helps me bring wingsuiting to the masses by having access to suits, etc.

I am not sure if the "empire building" you refer to is any worse than it is in other areas of skydiving (as others pointed out), or if it's just more obvious because the wingsuit discipline is so small and new. I also think that "empire building" is like the "politics" we hear so much about. I'm guilty of using the word myself, but somebody once told me that politics only exist for you, if you let them - and I had to agree with him.

EDIT: I should also add that from what I have seen and experienced, the BMI program is effective and well laid-out, and as such I support it (obviously). I think the best way to get into wingsuits is through a BMI, but I would never say that's the only way.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I'm continually surprised to see how long this thread has survived, apparently people have way too much time on their hands during the off-season.


Actually, most of the birds posting are in the on-season. Even sadder, eh? :$ Excuse me while I slink away ashamed at being such an e-dork. Trust me I wish I could be at the dz today. [:/]
sniffle sniffle

Quote

There is no other discipline with more skygoods than Freeflying.
Come on dude, is this for real??



Mark is most definitely being facetious! ROFLMFAO!! :D:ph34r::S

"I know it's friday night, but come on. Surely there's something better to do than yell at people on the internet?" - Tom A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>> The only alternative I can think of is letting the USPA >>handle it,

They did handle it. They have provided guidelines largely based on input from some experienced and articulate flyers. Lou can fill in the details. Further involvement isn't needed like it is in AFF and tandem instruction. mostly because this isn't AFF or tandem. It isn't BASE or CReW. It isn't competitive RW or freestyle. Its simply wingsuits and it needs to grow .

>> but somebody once told me that politics only exist >>for you, if you let them - and I had to agree with >>him.

Quote



This is 100% true. words to live by, really. Unless you are some unlucky bloke that gets, in a round about way, thru the efforts of an "empire building BMI" god forbid Grounded or gets labeled as an unsafe flocker or a lethal instructor. Get accused of taking up low-time female hottie runnaways on a first flight course while it is perfectly legal for the BMI to make an "aptitudinal exception" to the BM rules on the part of their "low-time, female hottie runnaway" and their desire to ravish her in her tight fitting classic 2, GTI ( or whatever entry level suit BM is promoting nowadays) then those politics become personal Matt.

Man! I just realized I would like to upload an attached picture of a female hottie runnaway tightly clad in her classic or GTI but I don't have any. Can some of you BMI's help me out?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Someone please enlighten me, (I'm being serious, I think I don't get it) I'm probably wrong here, because I just don't understand what a flatty relative world has to do with making a good wingsuiter?



A wingsuit flight isn't the time or the place to learn the vary basics of RW(and by RW I mean relative work in all disciplines), things like "dock with no momentum" and all that stuff. The basics need to be learned while flat flying. Of course, some people will say that it can be done while freeflying, but I think trying to learn RW basics in FF is just as bad as trying to do it with wingsuits. Once a jumper has a solid foundation in RW, he or she can add to the mix new things like new body positions(sit, head-down) or a wingsuit. No-one should try to learn to freefly or to fly a wingsuit at the same time they are trying to figure out why "docking on level" is supposed to be a good idea.

Did this clear it up for you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Very good points! Thanks!

I must admit, I think people should have proper relative work (in any discipline) skills before they start wingsuits.

Quote

"dock with no momentum"



If you don't know how to safely fly relative in at least one discipline by the time you have 200 jumps, you shouldn't start flying a wingsuit!

"I know it's friday night, but come on. Surely there's something better to do than yell at people on the internet?" - Tom A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
in reply to" have read a bunch of political bs that is petty. While sad and unfortunate, it is a part of our sport that will ALWAYS be around due to the personality types our sport attracts. There have been a lot of great points made, I am not picking on the previous replies, but they are all excellent points that have been made before. "
...........................................

Such political ( selectively anti-social ) BS is what can ground a wingsuiter. I've seen it happen more than once now .

Bringing up distasteful issues in public often seems to bring out the automatic ' you're just the same ' type reactions. This deflects the issue into reactionary woffle.

The dodgy BMi issue remains for some of us.
What to do about it.??

*Dodge the beggars ..don't go on their dives .. they mostly don't work and you'll get the blame for their stuff-ups.
*Don't let them dress you up in wingsuits that don't fit you properly ..it's not safe and you're the one who's paying.
*If you can learn how to fly a wingsuit from a BASE flyer. They fly like their life depends on it and it often does.

This whole thing about BMI wingsuiters assuming positions of power in the wingsuiting world when they don't deserve or haven't earnt them is an issue that could in the long term discredit the whole lot of us.
It's already having its effects. I've heard newish people talking about this very issue and they weren't happy. They said things like wingsuitings cool but the bullies that do it suck.

Thankfully some of us won't just suck other people's shyt without saying it stinks .

Seeing the genuinly well rounded individuals operate makes it obvious when the small brain swell heads get in charge. Ok they're not on your DZ??? Lucky you.

There's no shortage of them out here. Everywhere you turn there's Mr swell head pretending like he invented the sport . It'd be cool if they delivered but they don't know how to look after anyone but themselves.

Political BS .....sure is.

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Someone please enlighten me, (I'm being serious, I think I don't get it) I'm probably wrong here, because I just don't understand what a flatty relative world has to do with making a good wingsuiter?



A wingsuit flight isn't the time or the place to learn the vary basics of RW(and by RW I mean relative work in all disciplines), things like "dock with no momentum" and all that stuff. The basics need to be learned while flat flying. Of course, some people will say that it can be done while freeflying, but I think trying to learn RW basics in FF is just as bad as trying to do it with wingsuits. Once a jumper has a solid foundation in RW, he or she can add to the mix new things like new body positions(sit, head-down) or a wingsuit. No-one should try to learn to freefly or to fly a wingsuit at the same time they are trying to figure out why "docking on level" is supposed to be a good idea.

Did this clear it up for you?



General skydiving experience helps one fly a wing suit better. Here's a story...

Its August or September 2004, and I have just reached a hundred wingsuit jumps(mostly solos). An experienced jumper(over 5000 jumps) asks me to tell him how to exit, hook up the suit, etc.

I ask to go on the jump with him and later, we are both flying above SDC, agreed break off altitude is 5500' and after signalling break-off this dude just takes off like he changed his mind and wants to fly some more. I am flying my GTI and he is in SDC's demo classic II.

I had moved off to one side to watch his deployment and look at what's happening with a bit of confusion. He is ahead and below me and deploys at 4500 or so and I fly past him as he is snivelling.

I didn't think much of it then but something about that flight that I quite didn't understand and it kept bothering me. Almost a year later I figured it out. Eureka!! This guy was flying at his best glide angle(or close to it) on his first jump and had he done this for a longer period on that jump, I would probably not have been able to catch him. Of course, I only figured this out much much later.

Kris.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0