When would you ground a wingsuiter?

[Zeemax 0]

no really, XXXX wing suit company is better....

WHY does it always have to come down to this?!? we are already a minority in a minority sport. Can't we all just get along?

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[birdynamnam 28]

you are right, there are "fanboys" out there...

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/fanboy.htm

[The111 0]

Quote

WHY does it always have to come down to this?!? we are already a minority in a minority sport. Can't we all just get along?

No way man, your wingsuit company is from the dark ages and mine is LIGHT years ahead, and "progressive minded" to boot. Get with the times, wanker.

The idea that there could be more than one company making good products, is of course impossible. And what would we have to argue about if it was true?

(It's sad that I have to say this, but if you don't have a good sarcasm detector, please ignore this post)

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

there you go! attaching jump numbers to this shit again! im out.

but i really want to know: WHO THE HELL GAVE A BMI THE AUTHORITY TO GROUND SOMEBODY?
//////////

Clearly, if this incident really happened at all, the DZO or S&TA is the person who actually did the grounding. Unless the BMI in question is dual-hatted in one of those other roles, they simply do not have any such authority. I would like to hear the other side of this story.

A couple of you guys in here are coming off as entirely too sure of yourselves. Way too ready to point fingers at a program you clearly don't know much about. I teach wingsuiting.....a lot. I have been doing so since 2000. I take the responsibility of safely training my students very seriously and in doing such have brought several HUNDRED people into the air to join in our flocking action. It's fantastic fun and the rating goes along nicely with all the other ones I have (AFF, Tandem, SL). As to the "not able to help anyone in the air" comment: you have clearly never jumped with me or any other ultra-experienced wingsuit instructor (I have over 800 flights). I, and anyone I have tested for the BMI rating, can absolutely get to a student and give corrective hand and arm signals. I can also catch a guy flying off into "neverland" and guide him back to the DZ when he is flying aimlessly. I am sorry that your limited exposure to BMI's has been other than satisfactory, but that's no fault of mine. I am in it for fun. The more people I safely train, the more people I can have fun with.

Chuck
BMCI-4

[avenfoto 0]

Quote

hero dives suck so biggly.

..that would make a quality sig line....

[bodypilot1 0]

It's funny how the argument of "how effective" can a Wingsuit Instructor be while in the air always comes up. It's been discussed numerous times before, and concluded with, "No, the instructor can not catch you in the air physically", to correct your body position like an AFF I can do. And sometimes the instructor can not catch the student at all, even to give hand signals for body position or to give heading corrections! This I have seen happens during AFF jumps also.
Somehow the argument always turns to the BMI program thats the "student money milking" program everyones against, then it always turns into a PF suit BM suit thing, and it just plain stupid.
A few of Trae's complaints is also posted in the S&T forum and say's,
eg 2 AFF pushing students through the course too quickly not allowing time for newbies to absorb sufficient information.
This would also sometimes apply to a first time low jump number wingsuit flyer.
Or this,
eg 3 Low jump number people let loose on the wingsuiting world by low jump number BMi instructors.
How would the Phoenix Fly instructional program be better to solve this complaint that he has? It doesn't.

While I'm NOT writing this to argue that one program is better then the other, or what suit flys better or has more performance then the other, if we are wanting to be cautious of who we have in wingsuits before we "let them loose on the wingsuit world", as Trae would say, how about taking alittle time with the student that wants to fly a wingsuit. Simply doing a training jump, non wingsuit, with the exit and flight pattern and body positioning the same as if they had the wingsuit on, would give a better idea if they are ready for jumping a wingsuit.
Wingsuits aren't hard to fly, alot of people do not need such lengthly instruction on the ground or in the air, but then again, some do.
Take the time and professionalism to show someone the correct way to enjoy a wingsuit and be safe about doing it, not only for their own safety, but teach them to have concideration for other people safety that are in the air with them too.
And for the Instructors that try to baffle their way through with bullshit, try and continue to learn to be better in areas you know your lacking in, whether it be organizing skills, RW skills that strongly apply to flocking, or your own flying skills, that will help you never hear that someone is bragging of outflying you with only 10 wingsuit jumps, or even working on your skills at making friends of those you are jumping with.


Be safe and just have fun you Flockers.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[medusa 0]

Hey dude

Why don't you came out of the shadow and report the BMI that committed the mistake?

You can not blame the entire program because of the fault of an individual instructor.

There are two ways of learning things. There is the hard way and there is the correct way.
- Off course any skydiver could jump out of a plane, mediocritly fly a wing suit, deploy his chute and land safely “If everything goes perfect”.
- Off course any human can jump out of a plane and if you tell them what to pull most likely they are going to deploy their chutes and land safely “If everything goes perfect”

But if a Wingsuiter is exiting the plane in a wrong way and by doing these he is risking my life and the life of other people in the plane. I don’t care if I’m not a BMI or AFF instructor, I will do everything in my power to make sure he doesn’t jump his wing suit into he receive proper training.

Medusa

Get Killed or Die Trying!
Patent pending ATFK15456

[LouDiamond 1]

Nice Post Ed and I couldn't agree with you more.I just get tired of typing it out every time this comes up. Funny how this topic always seems to raise it's head as more people come into the discipline.

Trae, you complain that there is no leadership in skydiving in another forum and people are getting killed. Yet you're the first to protest what appears to be someone stepping up and being proactive at preventing a potential situation that could end in injury or death and the instructional program that is designed to make it safe. Are you really concerned or just bitching about what appears to be a personality conflict between you and the people at your DZ?

From the other posters responses to you, it appears that your impressions are specific to where you jump, and I have to agree with them. There are a lot of people in skydiving and on these forums who step up and try to make this sport safer on all levels.Between this thread and your other one, I think you have some issues, which may be well warrented, with where and who you jump with. If there really is a problem, then good on you in trying to fix them. If it's a personality conflcit then you need to work through that with those people.

However, you still have not said if the jumper in question was grounded or not and if they were, WHO did the grounding(if this really even happened). You're more than welcome to PM me if you do not want to post to the forum the circumstances behind this alleged event.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[greybeard 0]

The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly...........

I'll be the Ugly, for obvious reasons, youa'll work out the Good and the Bad.

John Dillinger said that he always thought of himself as a good person!

Richard Nixon was convinced that he 'was not a crook'. Checkers was a really cute little doggie.

Kent State was a 'mistake'. No shit!


To topic:

Trae's complaints are valid and all too pervasive in our world. It seems to be 'the nature of the beast', that egos and personal preferences will invade the best and worst of our activities.

It was great to witness that nobody took any cheap shots or attacked Trae personally. Constructive concern was the response. Bravo to those responses. And bravo to Trae for staying on topic without lashing out at individuals.

Can I take a few (years) step back and speculate on the creation of the BMI? The idea as I interpreted it, was to introduce wingsuit flight into the mainstream skydiving community, in a semi-controlled environment, which would hopefully negate unnecessary accidents and fatalities, thus promoting wingsuit flight into the mainstream.

Given this premise, who can deny a job exceptionally well done. In the eyes of USPA and the skydiving community at large, wingsuiters have taken an unprecedented, forward thinking position to promote safety and to integrate a new aspect to our sport.

To Trae's topic,
Again, the prospective wingsuiter is seeing alot more than we might all care to acknowledge. The politics or social crap is all too obvious to the outsider looking in. They are skydivers after all, and have seen enough of the ego bullshit to know what to avoid. Case in point........at Eloy at the holiday boogie, I saw at least ten wingsuit pilots from previous boogies, who never put their suits on or even approached me in my suit to chat.

How many w/s flights were posted at the Eloy boogie? Why. Four new birds at a ten day boogie, biggest flock I saw, five, mostly threes. Four local wingsuiters made zero appearances.

Perhaps we all need to sit back and look ahead.

Monkeyone's response above is the definitive one. He either plagiarized Dan B.C. or great minds do indeed travel on the same path.
(chuck, I love you for your mind, you are as ugly as i, suck a shot off of your babe for me).

TomAiello and Bodypilot1, thanks for superior thought and insight.

Fly forwards,

Mark

[voodew1 0]

I think that if you don't have a wingsuit instructor rating you should not even attempt to try to train someone else. The money we take from students is money well spent on instruction and knowledge. There are numerous wingsuit instructor wantabes teaching without the proper ratings and leading to the problems within our group.
It doesn't matter what suit you fly get instruction from a rated instructor not some fly by the seat of his or her pants want a be with a spare suit -- and by all means pay the money its worth it!!!!


















Yeah I was just kidding you should know how I feel about the instruction from my past ---- PS I do charge one jump ticket to jump with my students -- but thats all, the ground school is free -- Yes I am a whore but I also have a real job and I skydive for fun not money.

As for a BMI or even a PFI (which is much better by the way (because thats whose rating I have

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Jason, you're killing me!

Dublin, GA....3nd weekend in March.....be there.

[The111 0]

Quote

Jason, you're killing me!

Dublin, GA....3nd weekend in March.....be there.

2st or 3nd? I'll be there.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[voodew1 0]

I am locked in on the Flock and Dock --- registration is up on baserigs.com as of today

Dublin I will have to see about - leaving Texas twice in a year would be hard ---
I go to Dublin you come back to Skyfest?????????

And you know where ever I go I will bring the Texas flock in tow

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[VectorBoy 0]

Quote

Quote

That is an incorrect statement. A BMI can can give in air corrections such as body position and heading corrections to a student during a first flight. Likewise a BMI can provide in air coaching to an experienced wing suit pilot looking to improve their skills. Coupled with an air to air communications system, the learning curve increases exponentially. Had a BMI taught you, you would know this to be true.

Correct. At Eloy last week, there was a student who started flying straight down jumprun, which would not have been good. I managed to fly under the student and correct their heading by 9k feet.

The above two posts assume that nobody but a BMI could possibly have the capability to perform these precious tasks. Matt I've "hearded" a lot of wayward pilots, everybody that flocks within our group can and does give hand signals and just about all of us fly camera so most often the new flyer gets a panoramic multi view debrief video. All of this without any BMI involvement.

The in air communications capabilty is an awesome tool ( that could be used by just about anybody qualified if not certified ) for training but hardly any BMIs have them last I checked.

So tell us again what exactly is it that a BMI can do that an otherwise competent, safe and skilled flocker can't do............................ I know the answer.

[dploi 0]

(Responding to the first post). Sounds like you have ONE asshole on your hands. Do not extend this to the group. I'm not a BMI, nor do agree with 100% of the program, but your post is an obvious slam.

Just fly your fucking suits, people.

[The111 0]

Quote

So tell us again what exactly is it that a BMI can do that an otherwise competent, safe and skilled flocker can't do............................ I know the answer.

You are correct - the answer is: not much.

Now answer this corollary question: who decides whether a flocker is competent, safe, and skilled enough to be trusted with a first-time flyer?

Just because I (hypothetically, of course) am an RW god who can outfly any AFF instructor on the planet, does not mean they will let me jump with students automatically, and for good reason. There is a level of standardization in this sport for a reason, I think that is a very elementary concept we should all be accustomed to.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[The111 0]

Quote

everybody that flocks within our group can and does give hand signals

You guys are correcting each other's body position on every jump?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Calvin19 0]

I know, i just hate the jump number theories. forgive my agressivness. im kinda just trying to be funny, and poke a bit of fun...
but i really hope that guy is flying again.

no one will ever ground me. EVER. i mean that in all ways. The choice should be every skidivers for himself, maybe some students dont yet know the risks of something, and need to be told, but i will never ground or be grounded. I am a jumper, and my freinds are jumpers. I am also a jump pilot, and as long as your reserve is in date, and as long as you promise not to take the tail off my airplane, i will drop you. (and if you dont HAVE a reserve, have a talk with me, and we will work something out)

cheers, i am done with this. i wish you all a good year of jumping.

[Trae 1]

OK didn't really want to tar every BMI with the same brush. Didn't even want to tar the powermad BMI groundhogger but he would have been side-lined (not grounded ) in my team....not put in charge.

I'm kinda used to being in company where I can speak my mind without worrying too much about little ego bursts. If I get it wong I get told. This makes it nice and simple ...usually.

The best times I've had on the ground and in the air are when every participant feels that their input and presence is no more or less significant or valued than any others..... as in functional teamwork .

If some big headed BMi gets in the way of this I'll be having my say . He got the message at the time and that was that .
For me this is a discussion of said behaviour not said person. Like others i would be interested in the other side of the story . Like why do these types feel they have to BS there way through the air.? If they aren't humble enough to openly admit they can learn from others then how did they get so far? The aura of imagined perfection looks silly when you see the rest of their life. Relying on little social tricks to maintain a position of assumed power is sorta pathetic.

It is good to realise all BMi's aren't so afflicted and that a lot even appear very highly skilled in personal matters as well as flying da suits. Pity there's not more like you guys.

....but then we're all working on that aren't yas.

• Quote

[VectorBoy 0]

There is a level of standardization in this sport for a reason, I think that is a very elementary concept we should all be accustomed to.

[VectorBoy 0]

You guys are correcting each other's body position on every jump?

[The111 0]

Quote

Instead we hear reliably train a new flocker because no one else is skilled enough.

I've never heard anybody, BMI's and USPA included, say that. When I approached a BMCI about obtaining a BMI rating, he mentioned that I was probably already taking up students, and that was ok, but the BMI rating (and the knowledge/training inherent) would augment that experience.

Why do you think so many people pay to receive BASE FJC's from manufacturers when they could find the local Joe Schmoe tower rat and have him drag them up an antenna for free? SKILL DOES NOT NECESSARILY MAKE A GOOD TEACHER. At the same time, I am not saying it is impossible for someone skilled, without training as an instructor, to do good on their own. I'm simply saying there's something to be said for standardization, and for learning ahead of time what others have learned before, on their own.

In your last two posts you've gone from the position that the BMI program is totally unnecessary as any skilled wingsuit flyer can do their job, to complaining about many of the finer points of the BMI program. In suggesting improvements, you are implying that you support it as a positive venture. Guess what? It might need improvements. I don't know much about its history and all your claims, but I have heard that it's improved a lot over the years, and I know that it still is changing. WINGSUITS ARE NEW, it can be expected for the training program(s) to evolve with time.

So which is it? Are trained wingsuit instructors totally unnecessary (your first argument), or do you have specific problems with specific programs that exist (a different issue altogether)?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[The111 0]

Quote

some students need some help, perfect students get a smile and a thumbs up, which is a hand signal BTW.

Yup, it means raise your hips in my book. Another reason for standardization, if we're assigning different meanings to the same hand signals.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[medusa 0]

Matt you couldn't said it better!!

Cheers to you mi friend!
Salud

Medusa

Get Killed or Die Trying!
Patent pending ATFK15456

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

I know, i just hate the jump number theories. forgive my agressivness. im kinda just trying to be funny, and poke a bit of fun...
but i really hope that guy is flying again.

no one will ever ground me. EVER. i mean that in all ways. The choice should be every skidivers for himself, maybe some students dont yet know the risks of something, and need to be told, but i will never ground or be grounded. I am a jumper, and my freinds are jumpers. I am also a jump pilot, and as long as your reserve is in date, and as long as you promise not to take the tail off my airplane, i will drop you. (and if you dont HAVE a reserve, have a talk with me, and we will work something out)

cheers, i am done with this. i wish you all a good year of jumping.

That is an amazingly cavalier post! You standing there pounding your chest and proclaiming "never" is possibly the silliest thing I have read (or heard.) If you are a wreckless jumper (or pilot), then eventually you will be censured and/or have your ratings pulled. It's as simple as that. Unbelievable.

Chuck