flatspin video on SM.com

[ernokaikkonen 0]

There was a fatality in Spain a few years back where a skysurfer went in without a Cypres activation. He was spinning very hard and apparently the rotation managed to produce enough lift to slow him down below the Cypres activation speed. I don't know if that can happen in a wingsuit, but some of the bigger suits do have a lot of surface area in the wings. Who wants to take a data logger and go give it a try?

Watching the video, at times, that actually looked like a side spin. Those of you who have seen some of the Tandem Instructor course videos will remember that it's quite possible to end up in a side spin by yourself, and that the usual recovery methods(arch hard) wont work. Also(I'm just speculating now) I think that "balling up" doesn't necessarily work if you're on your side; all it takes is a small asymmetry in your legs for the spin to keep going and even accelerate.

Maybe some of the TI recovery techniques could be adapted to deal with wingsuit spins? Maybe the importance of the LQRS should be stressed to people buying a wingsuit(as it's the leg wing that gets you in trouble)?

I'm not saying that there's necessarily anything wrong with the current procedures, just a couple of random thoughts I had.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

In either case, it's clear the G forces weren't so intense to disallow limb movement.

Quote

Would a cypress be activated, or does the spin (and the amount of surface exposed) generate such drag/lift that you stay out of the activation-range?

The following addresses both statements above.Let's think about this for a moment. The other(2nd) flat spin video out there(SDM.com) clearly shows the jumper fighting to move their arms inward shortly after the spin was initiated. If left unchecked, a flat spin can generate enough G force to make it impossible to move ones appendages at all. For those who were there at this years WFFC(05) that saw Jeff's eyes after his flat spin incident there should be no question about the forces generated.The entire whites of his eyes were blood red for weeks and according to him, he had substantial soft tissue swelling in his head for several days afterwards to the point that he looked deformed. (That flat spin was the result of a rodeo gone bad)

Also apparent in that 2nd video is the fact that the other BirdMan filming was actually falling faster than the jumper in the flat spin. The speed generated by the flat spin is actually quite substantial and in a sense you become a human helicopter blade and your vertical decent rate actualy is quite low. Based on the information that was gained from the analysis of Chris Martin's accident and what we can also see in the flat spin video, the decent rates are slow enough that there is little to no chance that an AAD would fire before one impacted the ground. Once one blacks out , their body and limbs go completly limp, the spin increases in speed and the decent rate decreases, as there is no resistance from the jumper anymore. The other issue that one needs to keep in mind is that even if your AAD did fire, chances are the constant rotational forces would kill you before your AAD fired or you impacted the ground.

Again, this all points back at the learning points I posted earlier and why there is a jump minimum requirement. The need to quickly and correctly respond to a flat spin, as we have witnessed, can be a challenge even for an experienced wingsuit pilot .

Quote

Maybe some of the TI recovery techniques could be adapted to deal with wingsuit spins?

The major difference is that wingsuit flat spins usually occur with one in a back to earth orientation, not on ones side. A side spin would be just as easily fixed as a flat spin by following proper procedures and balling up into a fetal position. I would also go so far as to say that to end up in a side spin would be the result of not balling up correctly in the first place.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[JENNR8R 0]

Quote

FIRST LEARNING POINT
For those who want to start flying a wingsuit prior to the recommended minimums due to a suits ease of use or features or without receiving proper training: No matter how easy it is to fly a wingsuit, it is not a normal skydive just like a tandem isn't a normal skydive. Flying a wingsuit is not particularly hard. However, when things go bad, they usually go bad quickly and having the proper training and presence of mind to handle the situation is critical. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE FOR PROPER TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE, PERIOD

SECOND LEARNING POINT
The jumper involved is of average wingsuit experience and had not had any issues up until that point. The jumper thought they knew what the right procedures were to stop a spin. However, it is evident from their actions that they were not completely clear on what those procedures are. While the jumper attempted to close everything down, they failed to bring their knees up towards their chest and actualy "ball up" or cannon ball. When one finds themselves in a flat spin the first reaction should be to "ball up" as tightly as possible. Failure to do so will result in your continuing to spin and an increase in G forces until you pass out or stop the spin. "Balling up" means that ones legs are together and the knees are brought to the chest as tightly as possible and the arms brought in to ones sides, elbows preferably touching ones torso.

THIRD LEARNING POINT
Not "balling up" completely will result in your basically becoming a helicopter blade. Flat spins will more than likely have you in a back to earth configuration at some point if not for the duration of the event. Stopping or breaking the flat spin is the #1 priority. Once that G inducing flat spin is stopped, the next step one should be concerned with is regaining stability and a belly to earth orientation. This requires one to make an effort to find the ground while rotating through possibly all axis. Once the spin is broken, it turns into a rotating tumble and is manageable as long as one makes an effort to orient themselves and maintains the balled up position. Once the ground is located and the jumper makes an attempt to regain a belly to earth type orientation, the arm wings should be opened up. At this stage any residual rotation should stop and the legs can be extended and the leg wing opened back up and normal flight resumed.

FOURTH LEARNING POINT
Cutting the arm wings away is not going to stop a flat spin. Focusing on trying to cut away ones wings while on their back and spinning uncontrolably is a waste of valuable time. As seen in the video, the jumpers rate and violence of spinning actually started to increase after they managed to cut the arm wings away. Once the arm wings are cut away the jumper has zero control over the arm wing fabric. The arm wings will continue to catch air and partially if not fully inflate, thereby creating more surface area for the spin to work with. Likewise, cutting ones leg wing or pulling the LQRS will have a similar effect and result.

If you fly a wingsuit for any amount of time, you will eventually experience a moment of instability and/or a flat spin that will require you to act immediately. Instability and flat spins are easy to recover from if one is quick to react properly to the situation. It is entirely possible to encounter a flat spin or moment of instability and regain ones ability to fly. If you ever perform acrobatics or fly in flocks, you will have to deal with this usually on exit or when someone bumps you inside of a flock. The key is not wasting time and following proper procedures when this does occur.

I cover this a bit more in depth in Skyflying, Wingsuits in Motion.

That post was so good that I thought it was worth repeating. I recently tried wingsuit flying for the first time in a Prodigy.

On my third (and first solo) jump I decided to try a barrel roll. I'd read that it was a good skill to have, if one could do it well, before deploying to check for others in the vicinity. I hadn't done a barrel roll since AFF, but I didn't have any problem doing it then....how hard could it be in a wingsuit? I didn't know how to do it, but I thought I would try.

I closed my wings and dipped a shoulder.....nothing. I had plenty of altitude left so I decided to try it again by putting a lot of energy into turning. OH MY GOSH ! ! ! All the tumbling and spinning that began was absolutely violent. My first thought was that this is why there is the 200 jumps within 18 months requirement before trying wingsuits. One needs to be comfortable in the air when something like that starts. My second thought was reading about going into a fetal position and holding it....it may get worse before it gets better. It did get worse, but I held it and came back belly to earth and opened the wings again....no more problems.

I read about that in the book: Skyflying, Wingsuits in Motion. I was so happy that I had read about it before it happened. Thanks Scott

What do you call a beautiful, sunny day that comes after two cloudy, rainy
ones? -- Monday.

[The111 0]

Quote

If left unchecked, a flat spin can generate enough G force to make it impossible to move ones appendages at all. For those who were there at this years WFFC(05) that saw Jeff's eyes after his flat spin incident there should be no question about the forces generated.

But Jeff was able to move his arms inwards and grab his hackey. That's the point I was trying to make... if someone is telling a story about an "unrecoverable flatspin" (one where they couldn't move their apppendages), it can't have been truly unrecoverable, since they are telling the story on the ground, after the fact (and the end of the story always involves them moving their appendages). The only stories of "unrecoverable spins" would be told by dead men (again, sorry for the morbid talk).

There's a logical gap in the statement "I ended the jump where I couldn't move my arms, by moving my arms".

I do believe it's possible to get "pinned" (appendages trapped), but I'm curious how people always manage to get their appendages unpinned, even without proper recovery technique sometimes.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

I read about that in the book: Skyflying, Wingsuits in Motion. I was so happy that I had read about it before it happened. Thanks Scott

No problem. I am glad it has helped you out. That's the reason I wrote it, to help people
become better and safer wingsuit pilots.Thank you for saying so

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING