FAQ Discussion: First Flight Courses, etc.

[outrager 6]

Yo!

I believe there needs to be a separate piece on the new generation of non-restrictive suits (Access, Prodigy and such). They are so simple and safe that standard jump number recomendations are a huge overkill and need to be reduced greatly. Training for them can also be reduced to a short briefing. Both manufacturers that currently make these suits share a similar opinion, AFAIK.

And while on that subject - such suits are much better and more logical choice for a true beginner suit. Now that they are out in circulation, i see no reason for anybody to fly a Classic-style suit at all. First-generation suits are obsolete, because they offer all of the complexities, restrictions, inconveniences and dangers of the traditional design while having less perfomance than new non-restrictive suits. Their only advantage is being dirt-cheap, and anybody picking up Classic or GTi for more than a couple hundred bucks is a fool.

Another issue these innovations bring up: the whole BMI institute will have to change or become obsolete too. As of right now, a student with Access or Prodigy does not need an instructor for a safe and fun first flight, period. An experienced coach may be useful further along the road, once the sport developes to the current freefly levels - but such coaching should be optional. A short 5 minute briefing on the ground is all that a prospective student needs to begin flying the modern gear safely.

bsbd!

Yuri.

edit for thread title ~TA

[unclecharlie95 3]

Hey Yuri,

you raise some very valid points.

I would like think that in the future the minimum number of jumps required for wingsuits will decrease (especially with suits like the Prodigy and Access).

The wingsuit discipline is still new so we must not rush just because we made it in the door.

Wingsuit instructors help guarantee a standard of training and one that is inline with the manufacturers' recommendations. They are also useful for obvious commercial reasons, so i doubt they will be going away anytime soon.

This is not to say that the way we teach wingsuit flying will not evolve.

But anyway back to the matter in hand, for the moment I don't want to change the FAQ again!!

J

BASEstore.it

[gus 1]

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As of right now, a student with Access or Prodigy does not need an instructor for a safe and fun first flight, period.

I disagree. In my limited experience noobs:

- Do not appreciate their horizontal range and the importance of flying a pattern.
- Do not plan the jump unless you make them!
- Do not appreciate the dangers of aircraft tail wings.
- Do not realise you can fly through your aad activation altitude.

...and a whole load of other things - unless you tell them.

The simplicity of the Prodigy and Access is brilliant but alot of the inherent dangers remain and that's where a bit of guidance comes in.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[outrager 6]

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- Do not appreciate their horizontal range and the importance of flying a pattern.
- Do not plan the jump unless you make them!
- Do not appreciate the dangers of aircraft tail wings.
- Do not realise you can fly through your aad activation altitude.

...and a whole load of other things - unless you tell them.

Yes, this is exactly what is covered in a 5-minute briefing.

What i meant is that it is unnecessary to have an instructor to go up in the air with a student or inflate this briefing into an hour-long "training" - and charge for both. BMI institute has evolved into a rather efficient money-making machine. It made sense a few years ago, with old suits and limited general experience. Now it is unnecessary.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[The111 0]

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What i meant is that it is unnecessary to have an instructor to go up in the air with a student or inflate this briefing into an hour-long "training" - and charge for both. BMI institute has evolved into a rather efficient money-making machine.

I'm a fairly new BMI, so my response to your criticism will naturally seem biased. But try to take this post objectively.

While working a BIRD-MAN tent at a very large boogie (WFFC), during the week I had SEVERAL (not one, but SEVERAL) people come to the tent asking if I could put their used wingsuits up for sale, because they were done with wingsuit jumping. When I asked several questions, I found the situation was invariably the same for all of them.

They had 10-20 wingsuit jumps

They were still scared of the suit

They were still unsure of certain things about wingsuit flight (things they should know very well by now, that should have been covered in a FFC)

They had nobody in the air to give them feedback on their peformance

One guy was actually complaining that his deployments were hurting him, and he thought this was normal! He was surprised when we explained a proper deployment sequence to him, and that it should not hurt when done right. He agreed to keep his wingsuit and try our tips.

The response was the same with the other people - the solutions to their problems were things we would have covered with them in a FFC, but these things were mysteries to these people. All were very interested in holding onto their suits and flying again.

That example aside, at large boogies in various places, even when I am not working as a BMI, I often meet people who describe wingsuit jumping as SCARY instead of FUN. And when I get to the root of it, it was always their first WS jump which was SCARY (and rightfully so when they describe the instruction they received, and the actual jump itself). First impressions are lasting. Say what you want about the money I charge for a FFC, but the bottom line is I like wingsuits and I want more people to jump wingsuits with - I want our sport to grow. If I can give someone a FUN, SAFE first impression of the sport, chances are they'll be back for more. I am sick of seeing people who wet their feet in the wingsuit world and never return. It takes time to cover all the bases on a first flight and I charge for my time (a fairly normal practice in this sport, and not a very strange concept). Those who want free instruction can always find it, but in this sport you get what you pay for, usually.

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It made sense a few years ago, with old suits and limited general experience. Now it is unnecessary.

What does general experience have to do with a newbie's understanding of the sport?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[gus 1]

Ah ok, I'm with you now.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[Waldschrat 0]

Sorry, what is FFC?

[outrager 6]

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And when I get to the root of it, it was always their first WS jump which was SCARY (and rightfully so when they describe the instruction they received, and the actual jump itself).

I agree, this is the root of a problem. And here is what i think about the first flight:

Flying a wingsuit is very easy and natural for most people - much much easier than learning anything in a regular freefall. An average jumper needs to relax, then he flies naturally. A few minutes of very basic information is all that is required to make a first flight safe and fun. One problem is when people don't get these basics. Another is when people get too much.

A current BMI training was designed for older, complicated suits. While very thorough, it presents flying a wingsuit as an overly complicated task, thus frequently making a student stiff and scared. This was at least partially justified when you had to spend time connecting the suit to your rig without covering the handles, then worry about going unstable, finding your PC, hesitations, unzipping or cutting wings away after deployment etc.

New generation of suits removes the entire "straightjacket" problem. They do not restrict you at all - there is nothing to hook or unzip, you can grab your toggles right away and there's pretty much no way to go unstable or spin badly. Hell, they don't even look like wingsuits - it's just pants and a jacket. In short, jumping these is a regular freefall unless you make it fly. It is as relaxed and safe as it gets. So keep it simple!

You give somebody pants and a jacket and tell them "don't hit the tail on exit", "fly the pattern", "come back to DZ", "drop the wings before pulling". That's it.

You can add "stick your butt out if you want to fly good" as a next step. You can go and play with them later on, work on the body position, etc etc - but all of that is optional and advanced training.

The bottom line: new suits change the whole approach to getting into WS flying. They make it simple, relaxed and fun.

They also destroy the current business process, but that should not be a concern - you will make plenty of money doing coach jumps later on in a student's progression (if he is a sucker for it) and those will be more fun than watching a first-timer falling straight down

bsbd!

Yuri.

[tso-d_chris 0]

I agree. It is the details that make a FFC worth the time and expense. On my first flight, the spot was horrible. I didn't realize how far away from the DZ we were, with respect to the glide ratio of the suit. I knew the spot was too long for a track, but having no WS experience, I didn't realize we were too far out to fly the planned pattern in the WS I was wearing. I made it back to the airport and landed safely because I had an experienced BMI along for the jump, who was able to analyze the exit situation, and modify the plan for the flight.

Suit design was never a factor. Had I been making that jump with a Prodigy, the experienced BMI would have been just as important to the successful outcome of the jump.

[stratman05 0]

So I'm waiting to get the jumps in to make my first jump...looks like most people agree that the greater risks on the older suits have been minimized, but there are still some.

But most agree that instruction is key. How does this affect the perspective of number of jumps to take the first course? Still the same? Changing in the near future?

[The111 0]

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Sorry, what is FFC?

First Flight Course.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Bowie 0]

After jumping Prodogy for the first time i had the same thought as outranger. The suit is so easy to fly, deploy, get stable in that it was a joke flying it. I like it just as much as my other suits..
But if new birds don't get the basic instruction when will they then get it, if there is no BMI/PFI or experienced WS flyer at there littel local Dz that is my concern...
But with these suits the FFC jump number could be much lower..
.

Bo Wienberg

vimeo.com/bowienberg

[moonglo 0]

And yet I've had at least 4 first flight students I can think of who either spun out of control or dove at the ground in prodigies with at least 300 to 500 jumps each.
I think the time for a first flight is a lot more about being comfortable with being in the suit and aware in the air than just having the jump #'s.

-Jenn PFI #21

[LouDiamond 1]

Bo and Jen bring up some good points. The key thing to remember in both instances is that for someone who already knows how to fly a suit, the prodigy is easy to fly. As Jen pointed out, and from my own personal experience in seeing first timers in the prodigy, many of them DO have issues at some point in the flight, usually between 6 and 7 k feet with body position and this usually causes a flight path deviation. Having a body position issue during some part of the flight holds true for 99.9% of first timers, no matter what suit they are jumping, no matter what their jump numbers or skill.Even the guy who nails it right out of the door has some portion of the flight that can be improved on. The only way to do that is to have an instructor there with him to provide him with feedback in the air and on the ground afterwards.

As Jen stated, being comfortable in the suit is part of the equation. However, having proper instruction on the ground on what to expect and what to do in the event of "X" occuring goes a long way in putting that persons apprehensions at ease, which is a major factor in First flights. After the 20 mins I spend with a student on the ground, I already know how the flight is going to go based on their ability to follow the instruction and to perform the tasks that I ask of them. To further eleviate their apprehension, the instructor is there along side of them in the aircraft and in the air to provide not only moral support but guideance and coaching so that the student gets the most out of the experience and doesn't develop any bad habits early on. Like I tell all the BMI's that come through the course, your students performance in the air is a direct reflection of how well you taught it to them on the ground and put them at ease. The bottom line is there is no substitue or corners to be cut that will remove proper instruction or coaching, no matter the suit, without a sacrifice in performance and safety.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[ernokaikkonen 0]

Yuri, have thought about this:

What about when the newbie gets a "real" suit? If he hasn't gone through a proper first flight course, he will have no idea about how to fly a restrictive suit, what to do when he goes into a spin, will be surprised when he can't reach his toggles after opening etc.

Unless, of course, the newbie seeks instruction when upgrading to a higher performing suit... but... "Why should I do that? I've done 30 WS jumps in my Prodigy, I know what I'm doing!"

[outrager 6]

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Unless, of course, the newbie seeks instruction when upgrading to a higher performing suit...

That is, indeed, a perfect solution students should follow. You don't learn how to swoop Velocity in AFF course. You learn it when you buy Velocity.

Of course there's nothing wrong with saying "on advanced suit you will have to unzip". It may add 10 seconds to the briefing. Then again, 99% of the population figures it out on their own.

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"Why should I do that? I've done 30 WS jumps in my Prodigy, I know what I'm doing!"

I love Darwin at work, and would like to say "serves them right"... but in reality, after 30 flights anybody but a complete idiot will be able to fly (and survive) an advanced suit without going to school. It just isn't rocket science

The bottom line of this discussion: Keep It Simple! The whole BMI thing got way out of hand. A very simple thing is being presented as an open-heart surgery. It makes perfect sense from a business point of view, but is ridiculous otherwise.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[outrager 6]

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The only way to do that is to have an instructor there with him to provide him with feedback in the air and on the ground afterwards.

An instructor in the air can definitely help with learning how to fly better - but only after a student figures out how to fly. An instructor can do nothing to help a hopelessly spinning and tumbling student.

An instructor here is more like a freefly coach, rather than AFF jumpmaster. Such coaching should be available, but it should be optional.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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I love Darwin at work, and would like to say "serves them right"... but in reality, after 30 flights anybody but a complete idiot will be able to fly (and survive) an advanced suit without going to school. It just isn't rocket science

I disagree, but, afterall, I am a BMI and therefore making big bucks in the Birdman Institute.

There are few things that just, IMO, have to be told to the newbies; common sense isn't necessarily enough for people to realize these things. And, well, common sense isn't that common, anyway.

Looking at my FFC cheat sheet, here are a few examples:
-Deployment.
While the basics of deployment are the same on all suits, there are additional considerations when flying the higher performing suits. As a matter of fact, I think if you start jumping an entry-level suit and get no feedback(ie. no BMI looking at what you're doing in the air), you might catch some bad habits that only bite you in the ass when you upgrade to a HP suit. There's no substitute for extensive ground training to get the proper pull-procedure ingrained in your brain.

-Stability recovery techniques.
The basic thing to do when you go into an unwanted turn, relaxing, isn't really intuitive. People want to "do stuff to fix it". Even the next thing to do, "close-all-wings-and-arch" doesn't necessarily work unless you've been trained to do it; the fact that your spin initially increases its speed when you bring in your arms and legs needs to be known and practiced on the ground.

All the students I've taken up for a first flight have enjoyed it and performed well, even the ones who were at first afraid of the idea of doing a WS jump; a couple of non-WS practice jumps put their minds at ease and they were ready for the real thing.

On the other hand, recently I went to do a 2-way with someone with 3 or 4 WS jumps, on a MTR3. He hadn't gone through a FFC, he just "had been told what to do". He went into a spin out the door and spent the whole jump trying to recover. He hadn't been told the first technique: "Relax". He hadn't been told how to use the "wings-in-and-arch" technique. Good thing he was jumping a large docile rental canopy instead of his own rig.

The way I see it, after you add all the necessary things to the "5-minute entry-level suit briefing", you might as well do the whole thing; it doesn't take that long.

I'm also a big fan of Darwin, but I don't want to act as his agent...

[notsane 0]

I couldn't disagree more, Yuri.

I think we can all agree that the point of someone's first jump on a wingsuit is to have a comfortable and safe flight so they'll want to do it again.

The things that will make someone more comfortable and safe on that first jump are equipment and training. The Access and Prodigy certainly make the equipment side somewhat safer (although I wouldn't say much safer since I've seen people get themselves into trouble with one of these suits).

Now training is the other half. Since people have no idea what to expect from any type of wingsuit it's the training that gives them the comfort level. Take that away and replace it with a slap on the back and a few words on the way to the boarding area seems like a poor substitue for some real, structured training.

Is paying for a first flight course a huge impediment to getting more folks to jump a wingsuit? In my experience the answer is no. People pay for training all the time, even very experienced people.

You're absolutely correct that a first wingsuit jump is not rocket science, but that's not the point at all.

Scott