Costyn 0 #26 September 25, 2005 QuoteI've seen several people fly it in different dives over the past few days. You mean all of the 2 people that tried it? Quote The small armwings really seem to need the speed to keep flyers up with the flock (either that or it should be flown mostly by lighter people) Actually, I believe it's the leg wing this suit gets its most lift from, and in order for it to work, it has to be extended, and if extended, the suit flies fast. Quote The bigger suits seem to allow much more 'hanging' in the arm wing, when dives are a bit slower and people aren't flying to the max... Where the phantom didnt seem like it could be flown in a formation without the legwing fully extended and open.. Indeed, in the jumps where I was flying the S3S I could fly with my legs in a 90 angle and fly nice and slow using mostly the lift from my wings. As Jarno stated, in the formation this morning where the base flew quite slow, it was impossible for me to stay in the formation. If I slowed down to the speed it was flying at, I would sink beneath the formation. I might have not used the arm wings to full capacity, but it was pretty close. If I then extended the legs to get more lift, I would also increase the speed and come out ahead of the formation. A quick chasse (zigzag) would bring me back to the side of the formation, but I would drop below it again. Frustrating. Even Jari agreed that it was a challenging base; that consoled me a bit. But, this is of course not saying the Phantom is not good for flocking. Compared to an S3 and S3S the phantom just does not have as much range in speeds where it will get enough lift. But in the faster formations it performs admirably (see previous post), and when it goes it really goes! JFK, in answer to your question, there were no GTI's in the flock. The suit is more comparable to the Firebird actually. Tristan, who flew the Phantom on saturday evening and the Firebird on sunday morning, said they were remarkably similar in how they flew and performed. I think the Phantom, given speed, is more comparable to Skyflyers in performance. James, in answer to your question, Jarno didn't try out the suit, I offered, but he declined. Yeah, we made some nice (manly!) docks indeed, but I think Jarno is right in saying that in very slow flocks you have to be profient or light or both to be able to stay with the flock, because the arm wings do not generate as much lift as those on a Skyflyer. All in all, I really like the suit, and I think with a bit of practice I could probably fly the slower flocks as well. CheersCostyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Costyn 0 #27 September 25, 2005 QuoteAfter a few flights I was flying nice solid docks with Costyn Yeah, but I don't have your skills, and it was a very slow base this morning. Dunno what kind of forward speeds we were doing when we made the docks... damn a GPS would be handy for analyzing these suits. Guess thats next on my wishlist of toys! Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #28 September 25, 2005 James Wrote: QuoteAfter a few flights I was flying nice solid docks with Costyn As stated..I do think that jump-numbers correct for a lot this.. The suit looks wonderfull, and on one of the jumps we ended up racing, and I was definately given a run for my money. But a lack of lift on slower flights (forward and downward) seemed to be a consistent problem, and the folks that flew it did fly tight slots in other suits (also ones they hadn't tried before) I think bigger suits like a V1 and S3S are a better answer to flocking for most people who are in a normal weight (and experience) class... Costyn wrote: QuoteJarno didn't try out the suit, I offered, but he declined. I would love to have tried...I'm a bitch for trying out anything new. Next weekend I'll be flying a MTR2 and a Prodigy in Zeeland (NL)... But Holland has little to no big flocking events.. And when you are invited in a 10 way flock, I'd rather fly it in a suit I know. Instead of learning to fly a suit on a bigway, where you could end up zooming all over the place. I would love to jump the Phantom on a solo dive, to try it out in every way I could think of...but I won't be doing solo dives when it's good weather and there are big flocks to be flown (knowing that you'll have to wait untill May next year for the next event) So my dicision to not jump it was not based and what people could or couldnt do in the suit. It was just a safety one on my behalf... And the fact that (aside from good fast flying) I haven't realy seen any solid flown slots in the Phantom this weekend, from people who performed well in an S3S they'd both NEVER flown before... This made me just mention that it's not a suit that everyone flies really wel straight away...it takes practice, and seemed to be hard to fly without the drive... The video of the last event where you (james) were showed you flying with a nice open/extended leg, in good flying jumps. In the slower jumps we did this weekend, the bigger suits (S3S/V1) allow you to not use the drive of the legwing, and 'hang' in your armwings more...to stop you from dropping out.. The smaller armwings of the Phantom don't seem to support this to well. Although no doubt you'd be able to fly any slot in it... And If I'm allowed to say....the fact that not EVERY single word anyone writes on the suit is possitive doesn't mean the suit sucks...it just means it's a real product.....and not a fictional story..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airowpoint 0 #29 September 25, 2005 As the second person that flew the Phantom I'll have to totally agree with everything Costijn says. I especially agree with the last remark of JFK. We should just get more speed into the flocks. With the new range of wingsuits, flocking will just become easier with more speed. And especially more fun and coolIn short the Phantom rocks, but so does the S3, S3S, Fire bird and the Phi (basically all the suits I've flown this weekend) by the way Jarno, I didn't know you were so safety consciousTristan Will you answer "NO" to my next question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #30 September 25, 2005 Quoteby the way Jarno, I didn't know you were so safety conscious When it comes to flocks and other people I fly with I do...or try to.. And what you and I do together 'slighty above' legal opening-altitude is my buisines But when I fly the Prodigy next week, I'll be sure to post how the wings keep coming off, even though there's only 2 documented cases worldwide JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #31 September 25, 2005 The Phantom is an "all rounder" intermediate wingsuit with an incredible performance range. It can glide very well (2.1) and also float, sustained fall rate of 35mph (and dropping with practice). The total surface area of the Phantom armwing is infact only slightly smaller than the S3 (approx -10% difference, see attached). The Phantom arm angle is higher whilst the trailing edge is specially tapered to give more surface area close to the body. This design offers an excellent balance between lift and trouble free BOC access. Costyn was having trouble staying on level because he was flying a new intermediate suit with an experienced base flying a "higher" performance suit with a leg inlet / back deflector. The S3 / S3s / V1 can be flown very slowly vertically & horizontally by hanging on the arms & de-arching, pushing your butt up and your knees slightly down. This flight mode is much easier to achieve because of the leg inlet (i.e. the hole or duct through the suit). But this is not to say that the same flight mode cannot be achieved in other suit designs. It just takes practice. In my experience only the minority of flocks are flown in this slow / slow flight mode (l know Jarno likes this mode when he flies base). Accessing the full flight envelope of any wingsuit takes a lot of practice and persistence, at least for us mortals anyway. Jarno, I hope you get the chance to try a Phantom soon yourself so that you can make a true informed evaluation of the suits performance. Have fun with the Prodigy, remember to fasten up the armwings correctly and you won't have any problems. I am looking forward to try the Phi and GS1 Long flights, JBASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Costyn 0 #32 September 26, 2005 QuoteAnd the fact that (aside from good fast flying) I haven't realy seen any solid flown slots in the Phantom this weekend, from people who performed well in an S3S they'd both NEVER flown before... This made me just mention that it's not a suit that everyone flies really wel straight away...it takes practice, and seemed to be hard to fly without the drive... That is a good point. Before this weekend I had no experience in either an S3S or a Phantom, and I have to agree with you, Jarno that flying the S3S in a flock was a lot easier than the Phantom when I had no experience in either. QuoteAnd If I'm allowed to say....the fact that not EVERY single word anyone writes on the suit is possitive doesn't mean the suit sucks...it just means it's a real product.....and not a fictional story.. Indeed. No wingsuit is perfect. CheersCostyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Costyn 0 #33 September 26, 2005 QuoteIn my experience only the minority of flocks are flown in this slow / slow flight mode (l know Jarno likes this mode when he flies base). Jarno was not the base during the jump in question where I was having so much trouble keeping with the formation. But I would agree with you that most flocks will not be flying that slow. QuoteAccessing the full flight envelope of any wingsuit takes a lot of practice and persistence, at least for us mortals anyway. Absolutely, and I'm sure after more experience in the phantom I would be able to join in slow flocks as well. The flocks we were flying during earlier jumps were quite a bit faster and I could easily keep up. Cheers, Costyn.Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dploi 0 #34 September 26, 2005 Next time, try keeping your legs extended with a bigger bend at the hip, treating the lower half of your body as a giant flap. This works with any suit, and I've found it to be the best way to "float". That is, keep the fall rate and forward speed low. I wouldn't call this "lift", though, as this technique only induces drag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #35 September 27, 2005 Quotetrouble staying on level because he was flying a new intermediate suit with an experienced base flying a "higher" performance suit with a leg inlet / back deflector. There have been a lot of jumps. With anything ranging from a slow falling base, to high speed chases all over the sky. I think we pretty much covered EVERY speed a base can and wil ever fly in a flock. Including a high-speed chases with the base completely maxing out..It wasn't just the one 'slow' jump where it didn't work out. But there wasn't one single jump where people flying it for the first time stuck their slot... QuoteBefore this weekend I had no experience in either an S3S or a Phantom, and I have to agree with you, Jarno that flying the S3S in a flock was a lot easier than the Phantom when I had no experience in either. This was actualy all I was commenting on... Which seemed to show me that the other suits are easyer to fly.. I have no doubt that amazing things can and wil be done with lots of practice...nobody flies a suit perfect for the first time...but people flew their slots without zooming all over the place in other suits.. All glide-ratios, designs specs etc etc. aside....when people do better in another suit, which they are ALSO flying for the first time..it shows me that that would be my choice if I was looking for a good 'all-rounder'...and it shows to me that the other suit seems a lot easer to fly in ANY type of flock if you don't have a ton of jumps yet.. Practice with the suit wil chance that....no doubt.... My 0.2JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JFK 0 #36 September 27, 2005 Quote All glide-ratios, designs specs etc etc. aside....when people do better in another suit, which they are ALSO flying for the first time..it shows me that that would be my choice if I was looking for a good 'all-rounder'...and it shows to me that the other suit seems a lot easer to fly in ANY type of flock if you don't have a ton of jumps yet.. Jarno, you might be generalizing too fast. It's not because someone will fly the suit X really well for the first time that YOU will fly it really well too. A suit fitting, in term of piloting, mr Y will not obviously fit mr Z. You have to take into account the history of the pilot, the suits he has been flying with and so on. Each of us made only one first wingsuit jump and from there we build up technique depending on the equipment we used. Whatever the suit is, the choice is personal. Jul.JFK #1013 PM Me No Adrenalin.... No Fun! "Minds are like parachutes the Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #37 September 27, 2005 QuoteJarno, you might be generalizing too fast. I'm only saying the phantom looks like a harder suit to fly correctly straight from jump #1...but it's quite funny how nothing but extremely positive news seems to be allowed...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #38 September 27, 2005 QuoteJarno, you might be generalizing too fast. You didn't try the Phantom yourself and you only observed 2 other people try the suit over several (?) skydives...BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #39 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteJarno, you might be generalizing too fast. You didn't try the Phantom yourself and you only observed 2 other people try the suit over several (?) skydives... Where I saw that they didn't fly their slots in the suit. They went low or shot past the formation. While they DID fly their slots in another suit... Just stating facts...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #40 September 27, 2005 I watched a guy go unstable in his first jump on an S3S. Just stating facts. Both of our cases don't mean jack beacause the sample size is too small and neither of us tried the suit in question.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #41 September 27, 2005 Quote I watched a guy go unstable in his first jump on an S3S. Just stating facts. Both of our cases don't mean jack beacause the sample size is too small and neither of us tried the suit in question. So that would mean you wouldnt be allowed to mention this anywhere either?? You saw someone do something...and you mention that...same thing I'm doing here..as that part was not mentioned in their initial reviews of their jumps... I'm not saying it's a shitty suit...all I'm saying is that they had a hard time flying their slot in the suit, something that's also quite obvious when you see the videos. I'm not pooping on your head or anything...I'm just stating an observation... Didn't mean to get your panties in a twist :)JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbla4024 0 #42 September 27, 2005 I'm volunteering for making a huge sample. I need only suit. And what's better, I'll do it for free, just send me the suit. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #43 September 27, 2005 QuoteDidn't mean to get your panties in a twist :) Don't worry, I didn't. I've met you and I know you are just being playful For some reason I have a strange sense of deja vu, something to do with that mini Pecnik photo you made Fido, you ex-prostitute! Stay off the streets and we'll send you a suit for testing BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #44 September 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteDidn't mean to get your panties in a twist :) Don't worry, I didn't. I've met you and I know you are just being playful Playfull and mindfull of what I see people do when they are flying different suits... My initial intention wasn't fighting or dissin' your crew...just tried to get across what I thought I saw in peoples flying the past weekend..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #45 October 2, 2005 Had more fun with the Phantom today. I did some backflying and later took a passenger on a ride along flight. The backflying went well, feels weird first few times trying it, but got very flockable fallrate (50s), so it's good. Flyin with a passenger takes more practice, and it would be good to figure out a way to not go headdown on the exit, even though it pulls out of it after a few seconds. "The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #46 October 2, 2005 QuoteFlyin with a passenger takes more practice, and it would be good to figure out a way to not go headdown on the exit, With me it was just the fact that I exited with closed wings with a passenger. Being quite heavy on your back, this throws you headdown (especialy if your legwing is a bit or completely open) I now exit rodeo's with arms wide open, en it flies quite wel straigt from the door.. Don't know if this is your problem as well...but just thought I'd mention it..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tinfoil 0 #47 October 2, 2005 Someone was going to ask sooner or later, and this might be a little soon. But... other then what Costyn said, does anyone have any other comparisons about the Firebird vs. the Phantom? Or your opinion on why someone should buy one over the other other then price? ALso, does the Phantom come with a leg cutaway system? thanks “- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #48 October 3, 2005 QuoteI now exit rodeo's with arms wide open, en it flies quite wel straigt from the door.. Don't know if this is your problem as well...but just thought I'd mention it.. Yea, I think that was it. Thanks alot-T ---------------------------------------------------------- Tinfoil: The Phantom does not come with an LQRS, my guess is that it's not necessary, but that's only a guess. The deployments have been very nice and worry-free for me, very consistently. I can't offer a comparison w/respect to the other suit (haven't even seen one in person yet), but I have heard good things. As far as this suit, I have not found anything lacking because it works very well for me."The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #49 October 3, 2005 Quotedoes anyone have any other comparisons about the Firebird vs. the Phantom? I think both are quite different suits. Phantom seems to be the king in speed. Firebird also has vents/airlocks and allows backflying at nice speeds (with inflated wings) I think the only way to get a good idea which suit you'd want is to fly both of them a few jumps. And flock in the suits, and do some solo's...see what you like... You never buy a car because someone says 'it's good', you always take it for a test-drive. I think both Birdman en Phoenix Fly are quite easy in letting you testdrive their products...so if you want to know which suit you'll like best, doing the testdriving yourself would be the best option I think..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #50 October 3, 2005 Quotecomparisons about the Firebird vs. the Phantom? Or your opinion on why someone should buy one over the other other then price? Suit comparisons are always "pilot dependent". From my own experience the Phantom has a better glide ratio and slower fall rate than the GTi/Firebird. In fact I am getting performance similar to my S3. (Ask Costyn what happened when he was base in the Phantom . The 1.5 Z-flockers were also impressed) The Phantom is an all round suit, easy to fly, less tiring and less sensitive to body position, thanks to the new inlet design and large back deflector. If back flying and acrobatics are your thing check out the Acro. Other things that you may want to consider when choosing your suit: Construction and material quality, look and feel of the suit, feel in flight, 2nd hand value etc. Like Jarno said, try before you buy and see what flies best for you. QuoteALso, does the Phantom come with a leg cutaway system? The Phantom has a very wide leg stance to enhance stability and performance. It also allows you to get a good kick going in the case of line twists and even take long strides for landing your canopy / walking to the plane. So a cut away system is not necessary. Long flights, JBASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
