Flocking advice (for ranch NY)

[petetheladd 0]

Hey all,

I am going to see if I can coral the wingsuiters at the ranch together and have some flocking dives this July 4th weekend.

Is there particular patterns e.g V etc that are optimal for flocking ?

Also where should the green / less experienced birds be placed in such a flock ?

Any other things to look out for regarding heading/exiting/separation/break off.

I have my own ideas but I want to dip into the pool of experience here.

Pete Da Ladd
.

No, Not without incident

[LouDiamond 1]

Here is an article I wrote that should help you with most of your questions, additional information resources about flocking can be found HERE


It is easier to fly a simple "V" or wedge formation for those who have not flown in a flock or with each other before. Do a dirt dive walk through from exit to building the formation and break off.

Depending on the experience levels, start off small and work up to bigger flocks and eventually formations. Break off should start before people are at their personal pull altitudes to allow time for seperation. If someone is not comfortable with the break off altitude you may have to move it up or find a happy medium. This is usually more of an issue on big flocks. Smaller flocks,4-6 birdz, usually don't have as much to worry about on break off as there is plenty of sky for adequate seperation.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[petetheladd 0]

Thanks.

Additional questions I have are

1) In group, do the less experienced(usually faster fallers) leave the aircraft first(behind and below people ahead of them) or last(above and in front)?

2) How should people who end out (up or down) regain entry safely to the formation ?

3) Should experienced people or rookies provide a base for the formation ?

4) How do you practically arrange say 6 WS'ers exiting an otter - every body just bail out, floaters + bailers ??

Thanks

Pete the LADD

No, Not without incident

[leroydb 0]

4) I would say 3 out and 3 in, slightly staging the exit

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[LouDiamond 1]

1. It's not always the less experienced that fall faster. After you do 1-2 flights with everyone you will have an idea of who the fast fallers are. If everyone else is pretty solid in the group you can try putting them in the middle of the exit order to see if they can find a happy medium in the group. Some people simply fall out like rocks no matter where you put them in the exit order.

2. Going low on a flock is very much like going low on a RW dive. make sure they don't fly directly under the flock. This can be a safety issue at pull time when the entire flock is pulling. Most fast fallers not only fall below the flock but behind as well so the flock usually out flys them. Big thing is to tell those who find themselves out to not put themselves under the group and try to fly with the group off to one side so they can keep an eye on where the flcok is in relation to them. terrain and line of flight are also considerations that should be taken into consideration. In some instances, it is easier to tell the people who go low to fly anywhere from 45-90 degrees off of the flocks line of flight if there are no other limiting factors that would cause a safety issue.


3.It is always a good idea to use a solid flyer as the base. you want some one who can fly stable and keep a steady heading so others can move close in on him. A rabbit that is swerving all over the sky, gaining and loosing altitude will not allow a flock to build very easily.The base must also be able to fly slow until the formation builds. I have used very experienced people and newbies who were very solid and flew the suit well as the base before.

4.3 birdz on the outside of the A/C RW style holding the bar. front float out first, followed by rear and then center. Once they are outside the rear passed the shake forward to the center who checks the other birdz inside the A/C and then to the front float. the front float uses his head in a SLOW out-in-out motion. On the out, the rear leaves, on the in the center leaves and on the last out the front leaves the A/C. Staggering it this way prevents people from hitting each other. The remaining birds inside the A/C dive out the door just like divers on a RW jump. the people inside need to be tigth and ready to move after the outside 3 go. Squaring up to the door perfectly before exiting is not going to happen, people need to realize that so they do not create large gaps in the exit.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[SCARYPERRY 0]

Hmmm!!!would lend some advice,but afraid of anymore flaming,accusations.Wouldnt want to steal anyones spotlight

Only he can be happy,who can make his the present hour,for today he has lived

[leroydb 0]

dude, once you realize there is no spotlight...

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[SimonM 0]

Quote

birdz on the outside of the A/C RW style holding the bar.

Would you do this on a King Air ? I

usually jump a KA and to date we have done our exits by lining up inside the door and trying to exit as close together as possible- doesnt make for a very tight formation.

Putting one or two people outside would make things easier but I am worried about the low tail, run in speed and hanging out in the wind with all that wing begging to catch wind....

Simon

[VectorBoy 0]

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dude, once you realize there is no spotlight...

Are you using a flamethrower for a spotlight again?

[leroydb 0]

doh, foiled yet again...

Its those turbo boosters for my S3..... (imagine wil-e-coyette)

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[LouDiamond 1]

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birdz on the outside of the A/C RW style holding the bar

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Would you do this on a King Air ?

Absolutely not. The KA, as you said, has a very low horizontal stabilizer and is a major safety issue. There really is no good way to flock out of a KA other than trying to exit as close as possible one behind the other. Likewise, you wouldn't do it out of a PAC 750 either for the same reasons.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[petetheladd 0]

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The remaining birds inside the A/C dive out the door just like divers on a RW jump

Diving out towards the tail in a wingsuit usually has been a wild rollercoaster type of ride. I guess keeping the legs bent at the knees helps but keep arm wings open ?

PtL
.

No, Not without incident

[petetheladd 0]

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Its those turbo boosters for my S3..... (imagine wil-e-coyette)

Quote

Are you using a flamethrower for a spotlight again?

Quote

dude, once you realize there is no spotlight...

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Hmmm!!!would lend some advice,but afraid of anymore flaming,accusations.Wouldnt want to steal anyones spotlight

Can we keep the noise down on this thread ? Start a 'wheres the spotlight' or 'witty banter' thread to do the job.

If you have actual input to the topic header i.e. flocking then post away..

PtL

No, Not without incident

[The111 0]

Hey Pete,

As far as "the rest diving out 1 by 1"... I'm sure it is possible to literally dive headfirst, but in the large jumps I've been on (i.e. FULL OTTER flocks
Watch this video from the Z-flock...

From 00:32-00:41 there is a good perspective of many people running out the door (Perry is sitting on the camera step filming it all). And then from 00:42-00:48 is another perspective of a similar exit (the camerman is running out the door at the back of the line). At exactly 00:47 you see a really good example of the "run out the door and turn" technique done by Scott Bland, he uses his right hand on the edge of the door to turn around real fast, similar to how I said Chris actually handplants on the carpet.

You could also watch another video which will include many more large formation Otter exits, but the video's a lot bigger.

While diving out headfirst may be possible, it would have you flying in the opposite direction as everyone else, and I think it's important to have everyone exit on the same heading, or at least close to it (certainly not 180 degrees off).

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Since you said it was The Ranch, then I will assume you are jumping Otters. Exit depends on the number of folks you have on the dive, obviously, but I prefer to get as many people outside (at least three) as possible.

I do not call exits like Scott stated. Instead, all the outside people exit on the same count, but perform different tasks. Front float gives the "ready, set, fly" or "out, in, out" count and head rock when everyone is ready and then pops out toward the wingtip then settles back to line of flight for a second. Center pops off just clear of the plane and pops half wings, keeping line of flight. Rear drops straight down keeping wings collapsed for a full second before inflating to hard wings. That should seem VERY familiar to people used to doing RW from Otters where super floaters are outside and the base exits from just inside the door.

Assuming four or more people, the next two people line up shoulder to shoulder with the guys outside the plane, one in front of the other. On exit the rear guy does a little hop straight out to the side facing into the wind, just clearing the plane. The front inside guy gives more of a pop to the side, out toward the wing.

After those first five people, the remainders are stacked in a line, just like larger RW dives. I personally prefer to dive out to the side, still sort of poised, but with my wings all the way back behind me and my head on the lead.

On larger formations we generally have the point (or base in RW terms) exiting in one of the two inside positions. All the outside guys end up being on the left side of the formation.

Amazingly, there are quite a few of us on this forum who have been in formations larger than 30-way. I guarantee I have been on at least 80 larger than 16-way. What comes from repetition is closer proximity on exit. Early attempts will see you stealing each others air on exit when people don't pop into the right spot. Early attempts will also see plenty of people zooing exits and going low. One thing I can definitely tell you that will help things along which directly relates to larger RW is that "there is no such thing as too close" in the exit lineup after the base has left. Wingsuit bigway exits get VERY stretched out for no reason because people start taking like a full second (or more) between jumpers when in reality they need to be bombing the door.

If you are far back in the plane on larger-ways you have several options when you get to the door. As I have stated, I prefer a dive straight out to the side with my wings fully back and my eyes on the guys already diving to the formation. Others I know prefer to get out the door feet first and gainer. Others still are content to dive straight back and down, keeping their arms back behind them. The farther back you exit, the harder you are going to have to drive to the formation. Arms back, sometimes behind your back, legs fully extended to make up the horizontal ground while at the same time bleeding off the altitude you need. Getting out and popping your wings is entirely counterproductive as it will place you way too high and way behind.

When closing from WAY back in the plane you are going to have to build up enough speed to overtake the formation while still maintaining enough altitude. This way, as you close on the formation, you will be able to flare your suit out and ease your way into your slot. Once again, this techinique should sound VERY familiar to those experienced in late-diving to larger RW formations. This is very common sense stuff to those who do have such experience, but entirely alien to lots of people. It is this inability to regulate closing speed which leads to what we call "zoominess" and the people themselves as "zoomies." The last thing you need on a larger flock dive is to have some kid rocketing in from the side and taking you out. Most of us with any degree of larger-way experience have been hit hard by such flyers. Thankfully, those problems work themselves out in pretty short order when the zoomie flyer is given the opportunity to redeem themselves. I could name more than a few examples right here in this forum, but I will refrain from doing so since most of them have actually participated in flocks over 30-way now. Any of them ever shows there ass though and I will gladly bust out the video of their fuck-ups and mock them in front of their friends!

I hope this post helps you out. Take care and be safe,

Chuck

[The111 0]

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What comes from repetition is closer proximity on exit.

I definitely agree with that, even with my limited experience I've noticed it. Notice in the short video I linked to, at about 00:50, one second after he exits, the cameraman (Omar, I think) looks to his left, and Scott is RIGHT THERE. It's a great feeling to see the whole flock close together immediately after exit (only truly possible on smaller flocks, but still possible to optimize the larger exits).

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[PhreeZone 15]

Great advice so far. I'll be there this Sat/Sunday morning with my S3 and Classic2.

Any one have a preference/comment on building a flat formation over one with slight level differences? I've flown in a lot of flocks that were level but it seems like the ones I was in where there was a slight level difference that was intential for each row of the V flew a little smoother since it allowed the more inexperienced flockers to have some wiggle room and not cause collisions. Crashing through burbles became more of an issue but it seemed that it increased the confidence level, but that could be a wrong impression. Any comments on flat vs levels?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

There is nothing wrong with flat formations. As the burble is behind and to the rear of a wingsuit flyer, it's actually counterproductive to "ramp" a formation up too much as you go back. Now if you are talking multi-level flocking, then that second, upper level simply needs to maintain a safe distance above the people below them. At the deland bigways we were doing sequential dives where we would transition from single-level to multi-level and then back to single level. All you really need is about five feet vertical separation at flocking speeds.

I don't think you guys will be getting multi-Otter big at this event, so I would probably keep to big wedge and diamond formations, primarilly working on no-contact proximity.

[The111 0]

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At the deland bigways we were doing sequential dives where we would transition from single-level to multi-level and then back to single level. All you really need is about five feet vertical separation at flocking speeds.

As you obviously know, you can get much closer than 5 feet, it just requires you scooting progressively further forward, so that if you get down to say, 18 inches above the bird below you, you are now at least 3 feet forward from your previous position of directly above him, your leg wing is over his head (you're looking back at the top of his head rather than down at the back of it). I'm known at Zhills for getting as close as possible, and when trying to close those last several inches, not scooting forward enough sometimes. There's a very distinct and funny feeling that starts at your feet when you realize "oh yes, that's the burble that my feet, I mean knees now, I mean hips now are feeling" as you get sucked back and down into it. Like a Hoover vacuum. :) Then comes the collision and the faceplant into the other bird's ass.

All fun stuff really.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[petetheladd 0]

Thanks to all who are contributing to this thread.
Loving the info frothing out of this topic.

Is leading a flock on your back (similar to tracking ) recommended ?

I do foresee some navagation issues but lets say for 1/2 the dive ?

I know the fall rate would be faster but that in turn might help the faster falling wing-bricks and gain the advantages for good video, adjusting flight coz you can keep an eye on the flock etc etc.

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I don't think you guys will be getting multi-Otter big at this event

Correct, however 6 flyers could multi-level in two 3 wedges. It is probably a bit ambitious but something to think about if everybody just happens to fly their tails off.

PtL
.

No, Not without incident

[veter_ 0]

What's the exit order when besides WS group there's a solo (beginner) flyer? What's the safe delay between the group and solo? And what's the safe flight plan?