20,000 feet wingsuit jump

[Sylvain 0]

Hi there,

my DZ will soon organise 6000m jumps (20,000 feet), with oxygen onboard. Could anybody share his or her experience with 20,000 feet wingsuit jumps ?

-- Sylvain

[pbla4024 0]

You could try to ask famous unclecharlie from Phoenix Fly. They jumped from 9000m last year in Klatovy:
http://www.blueskies.cz/default.asp?menu_type=article&articles_style=&articles_id=180
http://www.anect.com/fly/

Fido

[voodew1 0]

Last year my friends and I did a high alti jump from 22,500agl. This was done in Houston Texas (only matters that it is at about 100 ft above sea level).

We were nervous about hypoxia and such so we did solos and didn't go for super max flight

each of us got about 3 1/2 minute flights and non of us had a problem we range from 27 yr old some what healthy/ to 34 yr pot belly smoker/ to 60 ish pretty good shape man.

I was not that tired during the flight but about 20 minutes after landing I was completely wiped out and I mean completely. I had to take a nap as I was drained of all energy (this might of had something to do with partying the night before and such)

Hope this might help some of your questions --- remember our 22,500 agl was from 100 ft above sea level which might have major differences if you are taking off from 2,000 MSL

The suit you choose might make a difference to as if an S3 makes your arms tired on a normal alti jump it will probably kick your ass on a high altitude jump (and remember you still have to pull when the flyin' over, so save a little strenght for that).

I will more than likely do another high alti jump next month and shoot for 4 1/2 minutes or better -- we will have to see what the body can take.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[LouDiamond 1]

First off make sure the people running the O2 know what they are doing. There needs to be a bottle big enough to support all the masks going at once at 100% O2 for the duration of the flight. The O2 needs to be AVIATION grade O2, Medical O2 or any other O2 is not recommended as it contains moisture which could freeze up in the system. You need to use O2 masks and not nose cannulas as you need to maintain a seal and breath nothing but 100% O2. Breathing ambient air defeats the purpose of having O2 and will allow nitrogen to build in your system.

Most civillian operations turn the O2 on at 10k feet but you really need to start breathing 100% O2 on the ground to saturate your system. With that said, make sure you maintain your mask on from the time they turn the O2 on until it's time to leave the aircraft. You may need your buddy to hold your mask on your face if they don't have head straps so you can zip your arms ups. It's best to have your helmet and goggles already on when you board the aircraft as fumbling around with those items while trying to keep the seal on your mask is not worth the trouble. Most people have no idea about the physiology involved behind hi -alti jumping unless they do it for a living or are in the military. Long story short, you can jack your self up seriously if not careful, messing with your O2 intake is no joke. If you want to know the nitty gritty phsy details do a search on high altitude as there are several very detailed post by myself and an actual chamber tech on everything involved.

As for the flight, it's pretty standard. Expect to fall faster than your used to up at 20k due to the thinner air. There will be a noticable difference in your flight as you hit the thicker air around 15-16K. Make sure you know where you are and where you are flying to while you still have lots of altitude. from 20 K you can fly yourself WAY off if your not careful. Several of us that did the high alti jump at the last years WFFC were around the 5 min mark for flight time with a pull alti of 2K. If your arms start to bother you, relax them, no sense flying with your muscles flexed the whole time. Hell try standing on the ground with your arms out to the sides with your muscles flexed the whole time...bet they get tired there too. Be smart and listen to what your body tellls you, fly your body and don't let your body fly you. Most important...have fun because it will be an awesome flight.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[kelpdiver 2]

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You need to use O2 masks and not nose cannulas as you need to maintain a seal and breath nothing but 100% O2. Breathing ambient air defeats the purpose of having O2 and will allow nitrogen to build in your system.

At 20k, nitrogen really isn't an issue, is it? 25k is the threshhold where decompression sickness becomes a concern, with more susceptible people being at risk a tad lower. At 20, you just need excess oxygen (and hopefully a quick climbing plane) to avoid a big hypoxia deficit.

Do you know many cases of skydiver DCS? What sort of hits are they taking - the scratchy skin or joint pain of a type 1...any type II hits to the CNS?
(going to search on you and high altitude now)

Even without a suit, it was fun flailing on the exit at 24, seeing the altimeter start working a bit later, and 'feeling' the air get thicker. Not familar with WS pre jump run procedures, but taking the mask off briefly to put the helmet and goggles on around 21 was definitely interesting.

[voodew1 0]

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You need to use O2 masks and not nose cannulas as you need to maintain a seal and breath nothing but 100% O2. Breathing ambient air defeats the purpose of having O2 and will allow nitrogen to build in your system.

I have seen in the past 1st hand where all of the RW record attempts full face masks were given out -- oh wait no those were tubes and nose cannulas.
And we all sat around huffed O2 on the ground while we dirt dived the formations -- oh wait we started breathing O2 from a tube at about 8k.

I am sure that all the people running these RW record attempts are just trying to kill us and save money on O2 and masks.

Lighten up quit trying to scare people from having fun -- I have yet to see a high alti load where safety procautions weren't taken! It is in there best interest. I am sure in the military they do it differently, but we don't jump in that enviroment.

Maybe if you turbine folks would spend a few hours flying around from 10k to 12.5k every weekend in a cessna 182 you would be used to no oxygen.

You will be just fine with a tube or nose cannulas -- have a buddy with you that knows the signs of hypoxia ---

As for going out and trying to max out and get 5 min flights in, well thats not the smartest manuever --remember you must have strenght at the end to pull and land.

Edit to add**** have made around 12 jumps from 20k to 23.5k-- Wingsuit/fun jumps/& TSR 2004 150way attempts and have never used anything other than nose cannules or straight tube along with the other 150 jumpers -- DZ altitude was no higher than 700'MSL

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[LouDiamond 1]

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Lighten up quit trying to scare people from having fun

You can't argue with physiological fact. Well I guess you could, but it would be self incriminating. Just because people get away with it, doesn't mean it is safe or the right way to do it. Ignoring or failing to learn that the consequences could be severe, could be a life changing event. Where did you see anywhere in my post that I was trying to scare anyone from having fun? I ended my post with "Have fun" . I think it is you who needs to lighten up Francis.

Quote

have a buddy with you that knows the signs of hypoxia

Knows what they are or read what they are? Unless you've riden in the chamber with your buddy, chances are you wouldn't recognize what his symptoms were unless you knew them or they were blatently obvious, like passing out. Hypoxia effects people differently. Knowing what your own symptoms and tendencies are is far better insurance than hoping your buddy catches them. Exposure time has a lot to do with it as well, If your within your working time at a given altitude, chances are you will not experience any problems. Go past it and I guarentee you will. Do a little research into high altitude phsiology and you will find that practices that "normally" go on in the skydiving community are not 100% safe. The saving grace is that most skydivers are within their working time and their expossure time is limited. Throw in a hard night of partying.heavy smoking or poor physical condition and you could find your self waking up on the floor of the aircraft. But don't take my word for it, do your own research.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Tonto 1]

T and I did a Birdman from 20000ft in Eloy in Dec.
O2 went on at 10000ft, and we stayed on it, even
using others discarded masks on the trip to the door.
We did a 4 min 2 way, had a great time and did 6 other
birdman dives from 14000ft that day.

We've both climbed (that's rock) to 19000ft+ and we
both live at 5000ft ASL. It helps being a little older too,
and knowing yourself well.

Everything LouDiamond has written is correct. There are
many ways to do high altitude jumps, cut some costs
and stay safer than doing nothing, but there is really
only one way to do it correctly. We like to think our skills,
experience, ego, fitness etc will protect us when things
fail, but without O2 in our systems - none of that means
a thing.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

and hopefully a quick climbing plane

That can actually be a factor in hypoxia, rapid decompression or ascention via aircraft. Scroll down in the article I linked and you will see the mention of DCS

http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/181893-1.html

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[unclecharlie95 3]

For 27k we had a pipe in the mouth from 10k and pipe in the mouth bail out system in ff.

We were 100% ready to jump on take off, i sat completely still all the way up. Only having to turn on my bail out and exit.

Visor / goggle freezing shouldn't be an issue from 20k.

Hope you have been to the gym

Have fun & looooong flights

J

BASEstore.it

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Jason, while you may have gotten away with a few high altitude jumps using other-than-USAF mandated 02 procedures, that does not make it "right." Rocketing up to 23k in Mike's King Air is very, very different on your body than lumbering around in a C-130 at altitude or sitting around waiting for the trail plane to catch up at that altitude. Of course I would not expect you or anyone else to understand that if you have not been chambered. These days pretty much anyone can call and reserve a slot at the nearest physiological training facility (the closest one to here is Shaw AFB and I had to go and get chambered every three, then later, five years I was on military freefall status). I recommend you go, if for nothing else but to help you find your oxygen deprivation/blackout point.

In hypobaric chamber training you are exposed to the actual atmospheric conditions all the way up to 33k feet. You unmask at "altitude" and are giving some rudimentary tasks to complete (puzzles, writing your name, identifying map features). Some people will last only a few seconds before they are incapacitated and others will go and go; we call that "king of the chamber." People who are in good cardiovascular shape can generally stay unmasked longer than people who are out of shape. People who live at higher altitudes generally do well too. Still, there are exceptions to every rule and that's what the chamber is for; to see how you really do at altitude. In the military aviation (to include military freefall) world people take it very seriously. Without that chamber card and a good flight/MFF physical you are grounded.

Want to do high altitude the correct, safety-proven and government trained way? Is so, then you are going to mask at 10,000 if your jump altitude is between 12,999 and 18,000 feet. Planning on going above 18,000? Then you will pre-breath 100% oxygen for 30 minutes prior. Dick around if you like, but don't get in anyone's ass when they recite the regulation. It just makes you look dumb to those on the forums who have actually been trained and do the stuff for a living.

Even doing things by the book will not guarantee that your body is going to be able to take it over and over. Ron "Body" Plunkett was an MFF instructor at Yuma who got DCS so bad that they took him off of jump status. Guess what? He never went above 22k. Ron was my roomate for a couple of years when he was working on Pope AFB and I asked him about it. He said he had done nothing short of the SOP on any of his work jumps at the school. Likewise, I can count several times where AF loadmasters were dicking around in the back of the plane just passing around "walk around bottles" looking cool only to pass the fuck out when the ramp came open. There are more than a couple of stories over the last decade about people on record formation loads passing out in the plane or simply stumbling out the door in a daze only to regain their senses when they got down in the "thick" air.

Ultimately, military oxygen use procedures were established for a reason.


Chuck Blue
D-12501
Military Freefall Jumpmaster (among other things)

[The111 0]

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These days pretty much anyone can call and reserve a slot at the nearest physiological training facility (the closest one to here is Shaw AFB

Chuck, any idea where one is near Orlando FL?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

There absolutely has to be one over on the cape (Canaveral), but there may be a facility at JAX or Patrick.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

and hopefully a quick climbing plane

That can actually be a factor in hypoxia, rapid decompression or ascention via aircraft. Scroll down in the article I linked and you will see the mention of DCS

http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/181893-1.html

This article seems focused on the risks to high altitude decompression in a pressurized aircraft. It still points to 25k as the threat altitude, even in the pressurized vessel. This is rather different from an open air craft where people are breathing at least enriched oxygen. Bolting to the surface from 100ft will cause bubbles, or microbubbles to form. A slow ascent on nitrox is far more gentle to the body.

I'm not seeing the risk at 20, at least not from nitrogen. Skymonkey - did they test Ron for a PFO? A lot of unexpected DCS cases are attributed to that common heart defect. I was a bit concerned about the higher 23-24 runs without prebreathing, but I've not been able to find much more than 'DCS cases have occurred.' Meanwhile several operations do it without for 40-50$, and Davis does 24k with for $500. ($600 for the 30k load)

Benefit to the fast climbing plane is less time of reduced oxygen. I did a lot better in a king air 24k run than I did in a C206 18k run, though there were other factors in play.

[voodew1 0]

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I did a lot better in a king air 24k run than I did in a C206 18k run, though there were other factors in play.

I hope you mean C208 (Caravan) as a C206 is by no means a fast plane unless there is some mod I have never heard about. (520 engine) I jump a 206 almost every weekend (max load 6 jumpers) and 45 min to 12.5k with six jumpers in the summer time -- we don't breath O2 but we do inhale a lot of ASS Gas on the ride up.
We have taken it to 15K before but that took forever and it was cold outside.

All of my high alti loads have been super otters.

I don't know of a 206 turbine conversion - there is a 207 but I hear its not a rocket ship either.

Let me know if there is some sort of hotrod 206 around

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[kelpdiver 2]

nope, did mean 206. I was surprised to hear it would do it, too. This was Monterey's, with the side door in the back. Nice view when you're stuck sitting for a long time.

And yeah, it took a long damn time, and it was getting really cold. (was perhaps 45F on the ground, -10 or 20 at exit) For some reason I was on top of bringing extra layers to put under the jump suit, but I still was in the usual running shoes with paper thin racing socks.

[TB99 0]

Tyndall AFB in Panama City, FL has a chamber ... not sure if they allow civilians ...

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!

[voodew1 0]

who the fuck are you

Welcome back

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[mccordia 73]

Quote

C206 is by no means a fast plane

Our DZ has a 206 Turbine, it climbs pretty quick....About 20 mins to 12,5 I think...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Tonto 1]

Quote

Our DZ has a 206 Turbine,

Turbine, or Turbo?

The times you quote are OK for a turbo, but SUCK for a turbine.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Costyn 0]

I think he means turbine. My home DZ has a 206 with turbine conversion too (http://www.soloy.com/206one.html); 420 HP doens't suck! I think it does about 1200 feet per minute with 6 jumpers. Of course, the time getting into the plane to finally being able to get out is about 20 minutes, like Jarno said.

What times are you used to, Tonto, for a 206 turbine?

Cheers

Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

[VectorBoy 0]

Everything LouDiamond has written is correct.

[VectorBoy 0]

Quote

There absolutely has to be one over on the cape (Canaveral), but there may be a facility at JAX or Patrick.

Check with your Gen aviation resources. FSDO's and others,.... most of the chambers are opened up for Ga pilots to get a grip on the hypox onset for safteys sake.

[TB99 0]

Oh, I know there's nothing at Patrick AFB either ...

Hey Jason ... just browse the WS and Incidents forums every once in a while ... just keeping up with any friends that may get hurt Sounds morbid, eh?

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!

[Tonto 1]

I have no experience with a 206 Turbine, but a couple of thousand jumps from a 206 Turbo.

20 min still seems a long time at 1200 ft per min. That's 10 min to get there. What do you do for the next 10 min?

t

It's the year of the Pig.