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voodew1

The direction of wingsuiting

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Ed you make you living off of skydiving - so if there are 80 tandems plus AFF students on the books how much free time do you have for fun jumps?



See unfortunatly, here is where your wrong Jason.

Your perception of a professional skydiver is someone that slaves for a DZ doing tandems and AFF all day, with maybe 1 or 2 fun jumps at the end of the day.

Been there, done that.... [:/] But never again.... ;)

My students, whether they went through my AFF program or my wingsuit program, will always be my students.
I offer help whether they ask for it or not, and always watch out for their safety. :)My days on the weekend are mostly fun jumps, as I schedule my student during the week when possible.

Granted there are the instructors that choose to make every bit of money they can working with tandems or AFF, and then doing a wingsuit jump at the end of the day.
If they only getting a few wingsuit jumps a month and they are a wingsuit instructor, I'd have to say it's not a good choice to offer paid coaching or instruction, since they are hardly current enough themselves. [:/]

My job as a professional skydiver is unique I must say, and thats the way I like it, but assuming that everyone is working for the dollar isn't true. [:/]


I hope after you get some time in the sport more, and travel to some different DZ's(some larger DZ's are family friendly too), you get a different outlook.

I must say though, you are on a good path in becoming an AFFI.




Keepin' it safe!
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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I wish all instructors had this steller reputation and sport ethics, but I don't know of many.



And that's the point. Ed may be a shining example of "doing it for the love", but not everybody is. Many are just doing it for the money.



How many rich professional skydivers do YOU know??? The $$$ isn't that good. Ask someone who JUST skydives for a living what their monthly paycheck after taxes is... it's not even enough to cover the mortgage - not even close.

I don't know a single skydiving instructor doing it "just for the money" including the Golden Knights, Black Daggers, the Test Board, and other military freefall instructors. Those guys get paid to do it regularly but still bring their families to the dz on the weekend to instruct... believe me, it's not for the money.:)

Katie
Get your PMS glass necklace here

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See unfortunatly, here is where your wrong Jason.

Your perception of a professional skydiver is someone that slaves for a DZ doing tandems and AFF all day, with maybe 1 or 2 fun jumps at the end of the day.

Been there, done that.... But never again....



Well than Ed I must say I am sorry - all the Professional skydivers I know are tandem mules

But you must know that you are the exception not the rule

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I hope after you get some time in the sport more, and travel to some different DZ's(some larger DZ's are family friendly too), you get a different outlook



I travel to many bigger DZs Spaceland/San Marcos/Aggieland oh wait thats a small DZ -- anyways my job/life/wife doesn't allow me to fly to other DZs

So Ed sorry I figured you as a tandem mule


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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So Ed sorry I figured you as a tandem mule



Now, THAT's funny!!!:D

Some DZ's (like Cross Keys for example) seem to be tandem factories and therefore the instructors seem to be mules. But, most of the dz's I've been to have a good mix of tandems and AFF and the school manager does a good job rotating the instructors. Here, at Raeford, it isn't uncommon to see an instructor stay with a student through coach jumps as well if there isn't a "cheaper" coach available.;)

Katie
Get your PMS glass necklace here

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One of the casualties of Tom's edit was Glen saying that

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Wingsuiting in real life is a dream come true ...



I couldn't agree more. Wingsuiting IRL is literally 'all love'. All the people who do it love it, and love jumping with each other. These sorts of fights just aren't present when there's actual jumping to be done.

Look at who's in this thread. With the exception of "Diablopilot vs. Vectorboy", all the divisions are regional, and mostly 'large, densely populated DZ' vs. 'small, out in the sticks DZ' arguments. It's "You greed prick/You ignorant hick" style fights that are going on. This sort of stuff could be applied to skydiving in general, actually.

IRL, this crap doesn't happen. After a few jumps, the details of a training program used by someone 1000 miles away just doesn't seem to matter.

So, Matt, don't worry. This thread's contents aren't indicative of where wingsuiting is going, in the real world. In the real world, we're all just happy to have someone to flock with.

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.

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...all the Professional skydivers I know are tandem mules...



This may be a big/small DZ perspective, as well. At smaller DZ's you're going to see working skydivers who have to take the busiest disciplines (like tandems) in order to stay above water. At larger DZ's, you see folks who are able to work as freefly, or wingsuit, or whatever, coaches, almost exclusively.

Another thought: I know that the guy who first helped me with my wingsuit was a working skydiver at the time (not in wingsuits, yet), and he didn't have any trouble making the time to help me out, and continue to answer questions later. And, he didn't charge me anything for the help. (As an odd side not for those following this thread, that person was Diablopilot, back when he was in Davis, and the wingsuit thing was just getting started.)
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I know that the guy who first helped me with my wingsuit was a working skydiver at the time.



I seem to remember he was working behind a deck doing bookkeeping and had no ratings that that time.
At that time he may have done some video now and then.
IMO, I wouldn't say that's a working skydiver as in tandems of AFF.


Keepin' it safe!
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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What I was saying is the professional skydiver moves on to his next paycheck - I continue to jump with this person the rest of the weekend.
The mentoring continues - with tips and feedback at no cost



I am going to respond to this one, but it applies to some of what Glen and Scott both wrote earlier:

Initial training- If you have over 500 skydives, have a suit to borrow that fits you, a wingsuit-safe rig, and the flight manual (from whichever suit manufacturer you happen to have borrowed), you are free to read the book, assemble the suit and go jump on your own. Nobody is stopping you from doing that. Likewise, nobody is stopping any other experienced wingsuit pilot from helping you if that is the way you choose to do it as a "grown up" with over 500 skydives. If you have under 500 jumps, then you are not going to do it in a BirdMan wingsuit without the proper ground instruction and a properly filled out waiver. The company is very clear on that, so if you are using BirdMan wingsuits for your instruction, you had better fall in line with those basic manufacturer guidelines. If you are not using waivers for first flight students, then you are wrong. Feel free to interpret the SIM anyway you like, but know that you are opening yourself up you and your dropzone to an aweful liability should you misuse equipment which has set guidelines for its use. Consider that the same as a type-specific tandem rating. My Vector/Sigma rating allows me to jump that rig, but it does not qualify me to certify a Strong rated guy to jump that rig. My Racer rating, on the other hand, allows me, as a rig owner, to certify other rated tandem instructors to jump my rig. Very different levels of certification for what is essentially the same task.

The myth that every very-expereienced skydiver can fly a suit safely without proper instruction or coaching- Ask Scratch Garrison about his two experiences in wingsuits. He almost died. Likewise, ask me or Ray Dutch how Carl Doherty did on his first flight. Even with instruction he instintively went straight to the boxman.

The myth that everyone at the forefront of wingsuiting is "just in it for the money"- Scott and I trained over 200 first flights at Rantoul two years ago and not many fewer this past year, plus well over a hundred the first two years of Eloy. We do not "force" people with over 500 jumps to jump with us, nor do we beg anyone to pay us for "coach" dives. We simply show up to a boogie with a wide selection of suits and offer legitimate, well thought-out and documented training. Once a person voluntarilly walks up to our booth and we have taught that person their first flight course (which, by the way, pays our vendor fee, gas up there and back with my camper/dually, and feeds us while there), we then invite them to flock with us for the duration of the event. Many, many of the posters in this forum learned from us and got every bit of their flocking skills at no cost (other than their own jump ticket) at those major events. Likewise, the posse that really wants to get better and learn from others is the one that hangs out at the tent and allows themselves to become part of the movement. I have trained many hundreds of people to fly wingsuits safely and have done quite a bit of that instruction for free for friends. Still, if a person wants one-on-one advanced coaching (with video) in order to fix a problem they are having or to improve some part of their game, then I am certainly going to charge for it at events which I am at in a vendor capacity. If you ask for it and are willing to pay for exclusive attention,then that's what I will give you. If you are content to take in the free coaching that is offered on every single freely-organized flock dive at those events, then great! That's what those dives are for; they are group learning environments. Ultimately, if you choose to amass a collection of you own suits and want to train experienced skydivers (over 500 jumps) for free, then go for it. Please don't whine though when your bros turf the butt wing off of your suit on landing and don't tell you about it. Suits are expensive! Repairs to tail wings are incredibly complicated and EXPENSIVE. If you do not charge at least a rudimentary fee for your instruction and suit rental you are soon going to find yourself with a big pile of trashed-out, unusable suits and an empty wallet.

Lastly, to to reply to Jason's post in particular:
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What I was saying is the professional skydiver moves on to his next paycheck - I continue to jump with this person the rest of the weekend.
The mentoring continues - with tips and feedback at no cost



You will do no such a thing. You will do so only when you are not on call for that next AFF jump (and the money that comes with it) just like every other multi-rated wingsuit guy does. All of us who skydiving for a living do the same. When I am here at my home dropzone I haul meat, do aff, coach, do video, and occasionally pack when it's needed. I fly my wingsuit when I have free time to clear my head. I hardly ever charge any local for a first flight course; just collect the ten dollar suit fee for upkeep. Beer for FFC's is the most common payment at my home DZ. I don't have any problem whatsoever, tough, charging individuals or groups who come here specifically for wingsuit training. That, you see, makes it business. If it's a specified task that takes me away from my other responsibilities at the school then yes, I am absolutely going to charge for the course. If it's for fun (a buddy or visiting buddies) then it's free; if it's work I am going to get paid.

Chuck

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The company is very clear on that, so if you are using BirdMan wingsuits for your instruction, you had better fall in line with those basic manufacturer guidelines. If you are not using waivers for first flight students, then you are wrong. Feel free to interpret the SIM anyway you like, but know that you are opening yourself up you and your dropzone to an aweful liability should you misuse equipment which has set guidelines for its use. Consider that the same as a type-specific tandem rating. My Vector/Sigma rating allows me to jump that rig, but it does not qualify me to certify a Strong rated guy to jump that rig.



I will interpet the SIM (which is established under the USPA) the way it should be done -by reading it:
C. Qualifications and preparation

Back to Section 6-9


1. Before attempting a wing-suit jump, a skydiver should:


a. have a minimum of 500 freefall skydives; or a minimum of 200 freefall skydives, made within the past 18 months, and receive one-on-one instruction from an experienced wing suit jumper

b. completely read and understand all documentation and training information provided with the wing suit

c. have the ability to perform exits and skydive in the deployment position described in this outline before making a jump with the wing suit

No where does it say a manufacture certified instructor, if I am reading it properly it says experienced wingsuit jumper!!

HEY THATS ME!!!B|:D:ph34r:

As for the waiver thing, well you sign a waiver before you jump at the DZ that covers me and others as best as possible as long as I don't show negligence-again the USPA says I can give instruction;)

As for again comparing this to a tandem rating there is once again no comparisonB| I could go into the whole USPA (our governing body) approved tandem instructor thingy but why, been there done that.

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In Reply To
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What I was saying is the professional skydiver moves on to his next paycheck - I continue to jump with this person the rest of the weekend.
The mentoring continues - with tips and feedback at no cost

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You will do no such a thing. You will do so only when you are not on call for that next AFF jump (and the money that comes with it) just like every other multi-rated wingsuit guy does. All of us who skydiving for a living do the same. When I am here at my home dropzone I haul meat, do aff, coach, do video, and occasionally pack when it's needed. I fly my wingsuit when I have free time to clear my head.



First off I figured long ago that skydiving for a living may be fun but its not to smart if you like to live in comfort. - So I have a real job and only do AFF because I like it and if my repacks are paid for and a few wingsuit jumps well thats just a bonus. I have never taken money from the DZ nor will I!

So I will restate that if I give wingsuit instruction to a new wingsuit jumper I continue to jump with them the rest of the weekend - unless I am at a boogie doing more wingsuit instruction then I may have others lined up - but this is normally scheduled ahead of time and not expected.(In a case like this my compadres take over the flocking skills and they do it for free to.)
I do AFF jumps if am scheduled to or asked to I don't fight to get a paying jump - once again I have a real job.

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Please don't whine though when your bros turf the butt wing off of your suit on landing and don't tell you about it. Suits are expensive! Repairs to tail wings are incredibly complicated and EXPENSIVE. If you do not charge at least a rudimentary fee for your instruction and suit rental you are soon going to find yourself with a big pile of trashed-out, unusable suits and an empty wallet



Maybe, but Iwill have a lot of happy skydivers/wingsuit pilots -- and I have a job so I can get the suits fixed if I need to. I do ask that if they break it, they buy it or fix it, luckly all my suits are still in good shape and if it gets ruined, well I only pay up to $400 for demo suits anyways! As for the empty wallet statement refer to the job statement above.

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Even with instruction he instintively went straight to the boxman.



I am sure that the results to that were terrible, as a very current RW guy would in no way be able to fall stable with and arch, feet up and arms as far forward as possible until he realized this was a "tracking dive"

Chuck, these suits are not hard to fly, remove the sigma you have helped to instill and more people will try. The more that try, the more you can try to talk into your awesome rating that I really want but can't afford because I have bought to many demo suits. Maybe if I get a second job I can afford to help support your cause in promoting wingsuit by paying you to give me a manufactures rating that will allow me to do what I have and will continue doing.:ph34r:

Thanks for your continued support

Jason


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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Jason,

I don't have a clue who you are and I am not going to play testosterone games with you, but I will say that I have trained a number of first time flyers myself and I have seen quite a few freaked out. Even with explanation and training. If you don't think a person can benefit from coaching and that a coach should be compensated for their time, efforts, and repairs, then don't get the coaching. I genuinely enjoy jumping with people and giving constructive feedback. I am competent and have no problem staying with my 'first time flyer' and offering feedback to hopefully make their future jumps safe and more enjoyable. Am I the 'BEST' flyer?? NO! Do I need to be? I am pretty good...not the best! That sounds like an ego problem. Do you need the BEST your first time???

As for your comment about flying a wingsuit not being complicated or dangerous...well we can tell you stories, but that would only invite more comments from you, so I will refrain.

Dude, what is the real basis for your comments?? I am so not getting you! Sounds like you have a different problem. Did someone piss you off??

Have fun or don't do it!

Tam :o:D
Let's have fun! :)

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Am I the 'BEST' flyer?? NO! Do I need to be? I am pretty good...not the best! That sounds like an ego problem. Do you need the BEST your first time???



I don't know where you got that from - I never said I was the best and if you look in this forum somewhere I even state that I don't have the most jumps or the best at what I do.

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As for your comment about flying a wingsuit not being complicated or dangerous...well we can tell you stories, but that would only invite more comments from you, so I will refrain



Does that we include a BMCI

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Dude, what is the real basis for your comments?? I am so not getting you! Sounds like you have a different problem. Did someone piss you off??



Real basis: is facts and truth not made up hype and bullshit and to the second part the answer would be yes, at one point and time, which opened my eyes to how this racket works.

As for the have fun or don't do it comment -----

Who said I wasn't having fun - thats why I skydive its for fun. I just want others to share the feelings I feel - thats why I do it my way - no BS - no you got to pay me because I am a skygod - Just let me show you what's all about - it will change the way you think about skydiving

And just for the record I don't know you either but with a name like Tammie I think I would smoke you in the testosterone games:ph34r: As for the staying with a first time flyer I used to think the same until our own "Brits" and her 105lbs soaking wet body floated up! up! and away! in "Katiebears" suit.
It will humble you! You will also learn how fast you can fall behind the power curve when a base jumper with excellent tacking skills smokes your ass and laughs about it later saying I saw you down there sucking wind!:o

I will continue to have fun
Jason


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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No where does it say a manufacture certified instructor, if I am reading it properly it says experienced wingsuit jumper!!

HEY THATS ME!!!



I'm not about to enter this pissing contest[:/]:SB|
I don't think my opinion is of any importance here...I just have a small question...

I think the rule for a BMI for 200/499 jump-students comes with use of a suit by Birdman itself.
It's THEIR rules for use of THEIR suits...

If they we're to make up a rule that says you need to wear a pink tutu and hit your head on a table 20 times while screaming "I'm an airplane" to be able to use it......then by using or teaching someone to use their product...you agree to the rules they set for that product....(on top of having to obey the general 'wingsuiting rules' you are talking about)

And when those rules are about BM wanting to have people from who they know they are certified/skilled training the people that use their product..the you need to respect those rules (technicaly?)

Don't know if I'm 100% correct...but the way I see it, you are not breaking any skydiving regs, but you are going up against the 'terms of use' that the company put up...?

Just wondering if I understood 'the rules and stuff'?
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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All I ever settled for was that we are born to live and then to die you get to do it alone each in his own way I gues we ought to to love those people who deserve itas if there is no tomarrow cause when you get right down to it there isnt
Only he can be happy,who can make his the present hour,for today he has lived




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I seriously think you need to rethink your position. I agree that wingsuits are not hard to fly for MOST people. It is that one student that isnt as smooth or calm or as relaxed as he or she should be that the rating (teaching/flying skills)may come into play.

Sure you can fly next to your student when he or she is doing reasonably ok, but what about when the S&*^ hits the fan?

I know you do not have to have a BM rating to have these skills, but it is a checks and balances kinda thing.



On a seperate note I would encourage other WS companys to create their own rating course. I would assume that they might at somepoint, it just takes time.


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Chuck, these suits are not hard to fly, remove the sigma you have helped to instill and more people will try.


Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

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Jason,

Right on man! I am way defficient in the testosterone dept. That is why I said I wont play the typical testosterone games (i.e. pissing contest) that is so typical with some. I just don't get the point here. Not really interested in hashing out much further either.

So, continue to have fun. Be safe. And if you don't want instruction don't get it. But if you are flying in my flock we will be on the same flocking page. I don't want myself or anyone with me getting a face full of your canopy cuz you aren't familiar with a simple wave off procedure. Just one minor/major point. If you never get coached, how can a person know??

Peace,
Tammie (Estrogen Queen):P
Let's have fun! :)

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Sure you can fly next to your student when he or she is doing reasonably ok, but what about when the S&*^ hits the fan?

I know you do not have to have a BM rating to have these skills, but it is a checks and balances kinda thing.



Just a question:

So when the s&*^ hits the fan I am sure that a BMCI/BMI can than fly over cut away his wings, stablize the student and pull for them as I do during and AFF jump(without the wing thing) gone wrong?
If they can teach me that trick by all means I am in and will forever take back everything I have said.

Instead of getting in this position, if I think a student is not ready we go do a check dive (tracking) where the arms never go above the shoulders - simulate a wave off(with the feet for those listening) and pull sequence with legs extended - if all is good we go for the suit.
I also require approval from S&TA or someone that has flown with this potential student if I have not done a jump with them (RW).
I keep myself from getting into bad situations by being smart!
I also teach the Arch technique just as in AFF if you feel uncomfortable arch more - guess what it works with wingsuits too!!!!!!

I am trying not to be rude or out of line here as asked by my peers(the ones on my side) so please I am trying to answer questions not piss on shoes


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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From my peers:
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Glad you are online. Listen, please do not respond to anything further for a day or two. Trust me, I've seen this before. Just take a break. There are a couple of post out there, that will suck you back into 'in credability' You have gained a lot of credibility in the last few weeks, don't blow it by giving in to the baiting I see happening. I couldn't warn Vectorboy soon enough.

I, and a lot of folk would like to hear You and Chuck
discuss issues rationaly, and "very, very, slowly". My drif being, something you mentioned a couple of days ago, about typed conversation is often misunderstood. Take a written point and only one point at a time, and discuss it.

Really could make for very good, relevent, positive, enlightening group discussion.

Mark

Forward to Skymonkeyone



I tried to forward this to Chuck but he has me blocked from sending him PMs

I will stand down now
Jason

PS I was told it was OK to post this it was somewhat requested


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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I actually don't think that you and Chuck are disagreeing.

Chuck said: "Birdman requirements are..." and so forth.

You said: "SIM requirements are..." and so forth.

The manufacturers requirements are not the USPA requirements. However, if you don't follow the manufacturers requirements, you need to be damn sure of what you are doing (and it sounds like you are) to avoid liability issues, should they arise.

If a student gets hurt, and it ends up in court, and it comes to light that the instructor wasn't following the guidelines of the equipment manufacturer? I'd say the instructor is going to be in a world of hurt. If they were following those guidelines? I'd say that would help them avoid some nasty legal liabilities.

If you don't want to follow the manufacturers guidelines, then be it on your own head. All I'm seeing from Birdman, Inc. is that they have guidelines, and if you don't follow them, they're not going to be held liable (or let you use their fleet of suits)--that's good business policy. They might also choose not to sell you their products--again their choice, and potentially good business policy.

I guess what I'm saying is that it seems like you're working awfully hard at disagreeing.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I actually don't think that you and Chuck are disagreeing.



No, I think they really are disagreeing. Chuck's view seems to be that no one should be giving wingsuit instruction to jumpers with less than 500 jumps unless they are a BMI. Voodew, and the USPA, seem to think otherwise.

Other than that, everything you said is pretty much right on. Liability and risk are on the head of the instructor who doesn't meet the letter of the manufacturer's recommendations.

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.

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