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voodew1

The direction of wingsuiting

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This thread is going in the way I wanted it to:

Debate with out the backstabbing that I and others have done in the past.

Thanks Glenn and others for your input.

What I have read is different DZs do things different ways and it seems to work - there are professional skydivers that have to make a living so they charge and there are ones like myself that just do it for fun and we could careless about being paid.

I by no means want this to stop here. I have just been sitting back and watching as we are under shitty weather in our state.


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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their are some people that have the ability to fly a suit to the record/skill camp/skygod/money stage..I have seen some of them fly and most are have sevral thousands of jumps in different disciplines and know how to fly well.



I have put professional jumpers with over 10,000( other discipline ) jumps in wingsuits for their first time. They are good, I know they are safe and everybody is happy. Can they now go and organize more complex wingsuit jumps without a little more wingsuit exposure, lets say a couple hundred to a thousand jumps specifically in wingsuits? We will never know.... you know why? Mainly because when a jumper gets to that level of experience they have gained a level of humility, maturity and the patience that helped them arrive at 10,000 jumps alive. These people have the tools and methodology to gain the wingsuit specific experience to be record getting / skill camp teaching / professional ( in wingsuits). They are working on it put there is just damn too few of them.

I wouldn't call any of them a wingsuit skygod. BTW do you have a lot of "wingsuit skygod(s)" up there in the NorCal?

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They are working on it put there is just damn too few of them.
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Depending on your dropzone, I think this is true in every discipline.

You had asked about "skygods" in Nor CA? I wouldn't label any awesome jumper that I know as a "skygod" up here :$. I would label them as extremly safe, knowledgeable and willing to help new jumpers. I feel very lucky to have a large selection of pro instructors and skydivers at my home DZ....guess I'm a bit spoiled :)
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I would like to see this forum be less controversal and less debating (it seems to be only a limited handful of people that are just online to create "drama").....hopfully those individuals will try and contribute at a higher level in the future. I should know by the "name" whether a posting is even worth replying to or even reading by now....:S
I thought this forum was:
A forum where Bird-people and those wanting to learn more about flying a wing suit can get together and share ideas.....not to stir up a bunch of crap and debating..I don't really see how that helps the sport any? Guess I miss the point[:/]

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Well Kris I am sorry that my posts bother you but reading about "Check out the new Birdbabe pics, and looky looky who made their first flight" is boring to me and goes nowhere. Look at the post numbers and views to the posts - debates generate thought and response -

I can learn a little from each debate which can change the way I see things - for the good or bad.
From this post I can see that the fulltime skydiver has to charge for everything because he chose the fun life over real life 8 to 3 jobs:)
And you should probably know that probably about 10% of the skydivers actually come to these forums as they think it is BS to hear the 50 jump chumps giving canopy control advice / training to the 25 jump just off student status jumper. It is always the same jumpers in these debates, always. I would love to fly with *most* of the pilots on these forums but it will probably never happen as I don't travel very far to jump.

I come to these forums for entertainment-- I get entertainment from raising eyebrows and debate.(**ITS NOT REAL LIFE**) in real life things are not misconstrued as there is voice inflexion used to get your point across - typing without the human body language and tone of the voice is hard to "read"
I have been known at times to be an ass (lots of times actually) but this post was not intended to be one of them.

I step up to the plate when bullshit has been said and I will continue that - I am sorry you and a few others don't like me but I will not lose any sleep over it. When then rain clears I will be flocking with my friends and not even think about this forum until the weekend is over and I have nothing better to do!!
So if your ever down my way stop by I will hook you up with a suit (no charge) and me and my friends will fly with you all day (you pay your slot) - send you home with some cool video(no charge) - and the feeling of new friends made - thats how we do it!because we can!


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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To add to this, I would say that most anyone can fly a wingsuit(technically it is not hard), BUT not everyone can teach others to fly a wingsuit. There are certain types of people that are natural born leaders and teachers.


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Mainly because when a jumper gets to that level of experience they have gained a level of humility, maturity and the patience that helped them arrive at 10,000 jumps alive.


Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

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(it seems to be only a limited handful of people that are just online to create "drama").....hopfully those individuals will try and contribute at a higher level in the future. I should know by the "name" whether a posting is even worth replying to or even reading by now....:S



If this tread wasn't worth your effort why did you respond? Does this mean you are adding to the drama, or is it still just one side stirring that up? BTW I don't think its drama its just your opinion and it is on a high enough level for this forum. Unless you are here strictly for some more cross dressing cartoon posts. Bonfire's got that all day long.

there are some people that have posted about new products and upcomming events only to be greeted with what you could consider true drama.

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I can learn a little from each debate which can change the way I see things - for the good or bad.
From this post I can see that the fulltime skydiver has to charge for everything because he chose the fun life over real life 8 to 3 jobs. (Not that skydiving as a job doesn't sound appealing but I am spoiled into actually having money all the time)
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Glad you get something good from the posts:)
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I come to these forums for entertainment-- I get entertainment from raising eyebrows and debate.(**ITS NOT REAL LIFE**) in real life things are not misconstrued as there is voice inflexion used to get your point across - typing without the human body language and tone of the voice is hard to "read"
I have been known at times to be an ass (lots of times actually) but this post was not intended to be one of them.
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So very true about forums and anything written- can be misunderstood. Personally, I go to the bonfire, speakers or womens forum for debate and entertainment and seek information from the others. I do enjoy the pic's of new skydivers trying a different discipline,especially if I recognize them from a different DZ (I do travel for jumping:$), but I also look for advice and training in this forum, since I am really new to flying a wingsuit and want to fly safe.
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I step up to the plate when bullshit has been said and I will continue that - I am sorry you and a few others don't like me but I will not lose any sleep over it. When then rain clears I will be flocking with my friends and not even think about this forum until the weekend is over and I have nothing better to do!!
So if your ever down my way stop by I will hook you up with a suit (no charge) and me and my friends will fly with you all day (you pay your slot) - send you home with some cool video(no charge) - and the feeling of new friends made - thats how we do it!because we can!

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I apologize if my posts made it seem like I "didn't like you":(...I don't enjoy reading some of your posts, because that's not what I look for in this forum, but has nothing to do with you personally:).
You sound like a great guy, we just have different reasons for reading and posting in the wingsuit forum from what I understand now:)
I may surprise you one day and come visit;)....once I master the wingsuit a bit more.....B|...I'm still working on my skills, before I travel:D

Take care

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If this tread wasn't worth your effort why did you respond? Does this mean you are adding to the drama, or is it still just one side stirring that up?
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I never know when a thread will be good or not, till I read it. I was really frustrated to see another thread that IMO was less helpful and more debating- guess I just had had my fill, so I responded:S. However from what I understand from another poster on this forum- some people use it for entertainment (which is ok by me), which is not my cup of tea. I will, in the future, be more selective when reading posts.I'll start by checking to see who started the post and that will probably tell me whether its going to be informational and interesting or just entertainment.
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BTW I don't think its drama its just your opinion and it is on a high enough level for this forum. Unless you are here strictly for some more cross dressing cartoon posts. Bonfire's got that all day long.
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You lost me here? Cross dressing? I guess I missed that one..lol..lol.. :o

I don't think that stating an opinion is high drama either.... unless it's intent is to stir things up and/or trying to make a DZ or vendor look bad on a public forum.
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there are some people that have posted about new products and upcomming events only to be greeted with what you could consider true drama.
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Yes...I love to hear about new products and upcoming events...just not wingsuit flyers arguing about which manufacturer is better and taking cheap shots at pitting people against each other...that is sad... and true "drama"
[:/]
Hope you will have a good day:)

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When people start to realise we are all just a bunch of apprentices this forum will have a much better flow.



What would really make this forum have a better "flow" is if we all spent more time talking about wingsuiting and less time on the politics... maybe we need a new forum: WINGSUITING SPEAKERS CORNER:D

Seriously, I'm glad to be apart of the wingsuit community and I love the pride in our small community. We'll always have differences of opinion on how to teach, coach and introduce new wingsuiters into the community but I'd hope that we can discuss those issues in an open forum like this and then sit back and drink beer together at the end of the day. In many ways, we just have to agree to disagree and drive on.

As for me, like in my military service, I find it easier not to have an opinion at all. People ask me all the time "what do you think about the war?" and all kinds of other political questions. My response is always the same: "I don't". I always tell them there's enough people out there doing that for me! :)

Katie
Get your PMS glass necklace here

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What would really make this forum have a better "flow" is if we all spent more time talking about wingsuiting and less time on the politics... maybe we need a new forum: WINGSUITING SPEAKERS CORNER



Even better idea... what if we jumped our wingsuits more? would that make us better? HAHAHHA;):P:);)B|:P:)
Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

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...I find your posts in general to be more argumentative rather than insightful and thought provoking.




Whoa!

Slow down there. Those weren't his original words, just something he posted to start a discussion.

Also, he posted that because he had shared it with me, and I encouraged him to start such a discussion in the forum.

If you want to get on someone's case for that being posted, please get on my case, not his.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Hey guys, we are going to mess around andget USPA all over us!!! Do we ALL want to be have to load instuctor rating from USPA? I think a coack rating at least, just so they have some sort of knowledge on HOW to teach.skydive U taaught me princeples of teaching...I dont want to se USPA get nastie on us, and they will if we cant bond, and get along!! Most of you here know me on personal level, PLEASE PLEASE just be patient, high have something you will all know about in a few short weeks, I gave up my instuctor rating,tandem rating,pro rating with uspa.Does that mean that I cannot share my knowledge with those seeking it? Am I not qualified?? Uspa has let us police ourselves,lets stay out of politics,and stay low key!!! We can all grow together,lets make it simple and non confrontational, share the love,knowledge and true feeling of flight.not bicker and pull stuff apart.How many of you have had to go to s&ta with something new and convince them what you are about to do is safe..Deland is pretty funny about new stuff and it took acting adult, going to them with proposel, show them suit,go over with instructor,and s&ta Just to jump the vampire this weekend!!! be patient and will give you all more info in a bit, lets unify,not dived and grow!!!!
Only he can be happy,who can make his the present hour,for today he has lived




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What would really make this forum have a better "flow" is if we all spent more time talking about wingsuiting and less time on the politics... maybe we need a new forum: WINGSUITING SPEAKERS CORNER:D



Perhaps. But until we have such a forum, this is an appropriate place to discuss the development of wingsuiting, the wingsuit community, and the various aspects of training, community and such that surround wingsuits.

Jumping (of whatever variety) isn't just about the technical aspects of the jumps. Many of us are attracted to the community that surrounds the jumping, some to the point where it rivals or exceeds the jumping in importance.

If you think this is bad, don't even thing about looking at the BASE forum. :D
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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What would you say to a skilled craftsman that was charging you for their services when he told you that he has been doing this for two hours? How about a lawyer with that much court time? A dentist? A doctor, a brainsurgeon?



The general level of expertise in the field in general must be considered. If there are only 10 guys on earth with 2 hours of experience? Then I'd say you might have a case to be considered an expert.

For example (sorry to keep relating back to BASE, but it's my home ground, so I tend to compare to it), there are probably no BASE jumpers with more than 2 hours of freefall time--including all the BASE instructors on earth. The only person who may be approaching that much freefall is not a formal instructor--and I'm not even sure he's hit 2 hours yet.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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One side claims the other " outside the program" methods are unsafe. Factions outside this team claim this as a marketing ploys and not a safety concern. Which BTW is easier to prove considering we have a safe and steady healthy growth in wingsuiters coming newly trained from both areas. Yet its an exceptable practice for this faction to qualify low experience " instructors". In some cases very low in wingsuiting experience. Not really a sign of a "safety driven" protocal but more of a marketing pyramid sceme.



Given that such certification is not mandatory to provide instruction, simply sharing your opinion that there is an aspect of marketing ought to give people the heads up that they ought to carefully examine their instructor's credentials and experience, regardless of who certified the instructor.

So long as the certifications aren't mandatory, and you can still fly without them, you're going to have trouble convincing me there's anything wrong with them. If the USPA starts telling people they can't share the fun with others unless they have a certification, then I'll be concerned.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Tom,

I should have been more specific...it wasn't the exact words on this post I was referring to in that sentence...it was the history of posts I was referring to :S...

In any event, in the future I will see who has stated a thread to see if the content would be something of interest to me :)

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So is the complaint that wingsuiting is a little to leading edge yet for professional instructors? Like we need a few years for the experience of the sport to surface up and breed out skilled fliers that can train the noobs?

I guess I can see that, but I'd personally like to get some decent training when I get in my 200 required jumps. And until we get some german speaking guy who starts up an Atmospheric Seagull license system and trademarks the term Human Skyflying, some low timers with good instructor experience is all I really have to work with.

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200 jumps with currency and skills is the key. ;)

I don't have a stake in the professional/non-pro arguement anymore since I found it was a whole lot better to just have fun flying and not worry about teaching at all. :P
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Both BM and PF recommend 500 jumps
or 200 jumps IN THE LAST 18 Months.



Key thing they say is RECOMMEND. You also have to look at the individuals general skill level and how they handle themselves under pressure. So this can go 1 of 2 ways. You could start jumping before you have 200 jump in the last 18 months. Such As myself, I think I had 200 in about 24 months when I started. OR 2, you could be someone with 500 jumps and still not be ready.
Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

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recommendations are not just something plucked out of a hat

jump numbers alone are not enough, currency has a big part to play

i hear new people say I just have to get to 200 jumps.

someone with 500 jumps who cant handle a classic would be a scary jumper, in any discipline.

AndrewB|

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Hey guys, we are going to mess around andget USPA all over us!!!


How many of you have had to go to s&ta with something new and convince them what you are about to do is safe..Deland is pretty funny about new stuff and it took acting adult, going to them with proposel, show them suit,go over with instructor,and s&ta Just to jump the vampire this weekend!!! be patient and will give you all more info in a bit, lets unify,not dived and grow!!!!



The USPA is not going ape over all of this. We have a fantastic safety record in the skydiving environment Fatalities/ Accidents /inccedents Vs total suits jumped. Some DZ are tabulating this. There shouldn't be any complaints unless there are a bunch of you zoomin tandems too close.

When I try something ( radically )new I am proactive and go not to just the one S&TA but all of them. Explain what I'm doing and how I tested it. I also run it by the eyes of some riggers that I respect just in case they alert on something that all of us missed. I chose to do this very thing last summer when I decided to jump a "one-off contraption" at night.

But as far as the Vampire, it is a new wingsuit. Its a refinement and improovement of an existing design. Its not radically different...... Carbon fiber wings, thats radically different.

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I agree with you. we are saying the same thing.

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I think I had 200 in about 24 months when I started. OR 2, you could be someone with 500 jumps and still not be ready.


Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

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