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trenty75

nickle vs stainless parts

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It's an interesting point, but do you really think that there is THAT much more force on the locking loop with stainless?



It's never really been an issue of how much, rather it's the simple fact that people need to realize that the choice they are making (stainless, mini rings) is a less efficient and therefore by definition a less safe system.

Pretty much every skydiving system out there today, including most every sub-system or accessory, are overbuilt to a level where, if they are just a bit efficient, it's really no big deal...but it's been a long time since the days where everyone had at least a basic understanding of all their systems, what makes them work, what makes them fail...and why...and people just don't know about their own equipment anymore. That's the scary part. [:/]

The excuse I hear time after time in dealing with students and customers is "No ones ever explained that to me before...I just though that's the way it was...!" It doesn't matter if you're talking about emergency procedures, exit orders, jumpsuit purchases or technical gear issues...you owe it to yourself to be educated on the decisions you're making. After all, you're the one getting out of the plane, 2 miles up, with those decisions riding on your back.

That, is the reason why I am continuing to put information out in this post. I won't speak for Derek, but I assume he feels the same way. At least some people are showing some interest in this topic so, by God, let's get some info out before they lose interest!!!

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with getting out there and jumping your ass off instead of sitting inside with your rigger learning technical data, but when you've got people with 2000 jumps who can hardly pack their main, don't udnerstand how to do a stall check and can't assemble a three ring assembly because they haven't done them or even thought about doing them since they got off student status, IMO, you've got to worry about the direct the sport is taking.

Faster isn't always better. Sometimes you have to lurk to get on a load just so you have the time to see how it all works. Take your time, enjoy the sport, and learn all you can!


"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

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...and people just don't know about their own equipment anymore. That's the scary part. [:/



On a side note, BASE jumping is also following this trend. Most BASE jumpers used to have the knowledge and attention to detail of a senior rigger. Every BASE pack job was treated as the equivalent of a reserve pack job. Nowadays it is very common to see people BASE packing with the same attitude as if they are packing a main. The technical knowledge of the average BASE jumper is fast decreasing.

Recently a student BASE jumper who was struggling learning how to BASE pack made the comment: "Perhaps one day BASE will advance to the level of skydiving where there will be BASE packers and you won't need to learn how to pack". That was pretty depressing to hear. (Although this prediction about the sport is probably correct I would personally substitute the word "advance" with "degrade").

I guess it's about laziness - wanting the fun without having to learn the less-interesting components.

However, to be my own Devil's Advocate: most drivers do not understand the mechanics of the brakes or steering in their cars and rely entirely on their mechanic. Does that make them bad drivers?
Should a driver be expected to have full knowledge and take full responsibility for the mechanics of their car? If not, then by analogy, why should a skydiver be expected to have full knowledge of, and take full responsibility for, their rig?

Perhaps many of us (myself included) get far too moralistic about the need for a greater level of gear knowledge among parachutists, when in reality, the general lack of knowledge/interest about parachuting equipment simply reflects our lack of knowledge/interest in other life saving devices that we use on a regular basis.

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However, to be my own Devil's Advocate: most drivers do not understand the mechanics of the brakes or steering in their cars and rely entirely on their mechanic. Does that make them bad drivers?
Should a driver be expected to have full knowledge and take full responsibility for the mechanics of their car? If not, then by analogy, why should a skydiver be expected to have full knowledge of, and take full responsibility for, their rig?



A skydiving rig by comparison is quite a simple piece of equipment. It does not take as much effort to understand how the pieces fit. A responsible skydiver or BASE jumper will take the time and make the effort to learn all they can about their gear. Not ALL gear, just theirs. Learn it and understand it.

In BASE it's not really possible to have packers, I wouldn't think anyway. How is a packer to know your specific canopies opening charactoristics. As a responsible BASE jumper you should know exactly how your canopy reacts to different packing techniques, and how opening time, and opening force are affected.

I don't BASE (yet) and I only have 45 skydives, but if my logic is faulty I will be extremely surprised.

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However, to be my own Devil's Advocate: most drivers do not understand the mechanics of the brakes or steering in their cars and rely entirely on their mechanic. Does that make them bad drivers?
Should a driver be expected to have full knowledge and take full responsibility for the mechanics of their car? If not, then by analogy, why should a skydiver be expected to have full knowledge of, and take full responsibility for, their rig?



I would agree with this if a skydiving rig was a complicated as a car is, technically. Rigs just aren't that complicated. There aren't that many parts and not really that much to learn...

...you do make a good point though. Especially in today's high tech world, we don't, generally speaking, know much about what surrounds us. Maybe this just leads us in the natural direction of "ignorance is bliss"...

scary...


"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

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In BASE it's not really possible to have packers...if my logic is faulty I will be extremely surprised.


Go hang out at any largish BASE boogie - you will be extremely suprised.
I've been offered money to pack BASE rigs plenty of times. Other jumpers make money packing BASE rigs at a popular location in Southern Norway.
It's becoming more and more common. In general people are becoming less interested in their BASE equipment, and yes, people are getting seriously injured or dying as a result. It's a pretty damn scary trend to say the least.

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In BASE it's not really possible to have packers...if my logic is faulty I will be extremely surprised.


Go hang out at any largish BASE boogie - you will be extremely suprised.
I've been offered money to pack BASE rigs plenty of times. Other jumpers make money packing BASE rigs at a popular location in Southern Norway.
It's becoming more and more common. In general people are becoming less interested in their BASE equipment, and yes, people are getting seriously injured or dying as a result. It's a pretty damn scary trend to say the least.



Yikes... I dont like paking (skydiving) but I srtill do it myself. I dont have any issu using a packer from time to time, buts its very rare (as much a $ issue as anything... yes I'm cheap lol), BUT, if I ever take up BASE, its one part of the jump I wouldnt want anyone else then myself to take care of.....

I thought a big part of BASE jumping was that you are in control of all the aspect of the jump, and you have to rely 100% on yourself and your skills... oh well...[:/]
Remster

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You guys are ignoring LCF.
LCF is the most important factor in the majority of consumer decisions.
LCF is what drives our economy.
For example, whether your hardware is matte black or shiny stainless steel makes zero difference in weight or strength and only a few percentage points in ease of operation, but shiny stainless steel scores far higher on the "Look Cool Factor" scale.

LCF drives fashion for the lemming like masses of this planet who lack the curiousity and intelligence to understand the machines that keep them alive.

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I agree, the fact that people are getting too lazy in BASE to pack their own rig scares the hell outta me. Now, I wouldn't see as much of a problem if the person that was packing my rig was someone I knew WELL and trusted, and if he knew my gear. But if I ever get into BASE, I WILL NEVER let someone that doesn't know me or my gear pack for me. Too scary

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Roger that, I suspected it had to do with the increased friction of the non-stainless hardware...It's an interesting point, but do you really think that there is THAT much more force on the locking loop with stainless? I wonder if anyone that has any numbers on the comparison.

***You can bet that Bill Booth has the numbers, he does not do things on a whim.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Stainless steel never rust. It's a fact. Rust can be a problem, and can cause premature failure of webbing, due to increased "friction"



It a fact? Sorry "Stainless Steel" will rust or corrode.
There are many grades/types of Stainless. Some grades are very resistant to corrosion but are also too soft for many applications. The term "Stainless" is a very vague term.

Josh
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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I hate stainless steal. i have had too containers and on both the leg straps never stay tight. i have to use two elastics on each side to keep the dam things from loosening. I had another friend send his javelin back due to the same problem. it came back still having that problem. I have a vector so it's not just the manufacturer.

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I have a vector so it's not just the manufacturer.



Yes it is. Just not the rig manufacturer.

The hardware manufacture is a different story.

The Stainless Steel hardware that has caused problems recently are the leg strap friction adapters I believe made by Capewell. They have a big problem with slipping. Most manufacturers were using thes for a while.

Another comany called Wichard Industries makes similar hardware, that does not seem to slip. Velocity Sports Equipment (INFINITY) has chosen to use this hardware. It's a little more expensive, but well worth it.

Some manufaturers (Mirage for one) have started using a 2 part friction adapter made in France. Currently that hardware manufacturer is experiencing long delays/backorders. Reports are the adapter does not slip much. I have no first hand experience with it.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Some manufaturers (Mirage for one) have started using a 2 part friction adapter made in France. Currently that hardware manufacturer is experiencing long delays/backorders. Reports are the adapter does not slip much. I have no first hand experience with it.



I have these 2 part friction adapters on my Vortex II. They are made by "Parachutes de France".

With these adapters, tightening the leg straps is not quite easy, especially on the Vortex II, which has a dual layer (thick) of webbing on the leg straps. Once they're tightened though, they stay there and don't slip.

;)

Yves.

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Order stainless for everything. I just grounded one of my containers because one itsi bitsi small part of a the ring that is part of the container (the large ring, does it has a name?) got rusted and contaminated the webbing.

My country has always from 95% to 100% of humidity.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

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The why on earth would Mirage or Javelin, or just about every other rig manufacturer would market such "fricitionless" release mechanism, if it's unreliable?



For the same reason they used to put soft housings in rigs that made it near impossible to cut away at all, or release things like "slinks" that can cause malfunctions. Never believe that ANY manufacturer has your best interests at heart. They're there for the money. Remember that, do your homework, know your history, and you'll be OK.

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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For the same reason they used to put soft housings in rigs that made it near impossible to cut away at all, or release things like "slinks" that can cause malfunctions.



:o This could be a separate thread, but.... Anyway, could you tell what you think about slinks? I know they can cause malfunctions under certain circumstance. I have the slinks caps on my risers, so the slider dont come down over the toggles. I check the slinks tabs often too.

;)

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Anyway, could you tell what you think about slinks?



This should be a seperate thread. I'm not a rigger. I've made my own "slinks" (Soft links) for over 3000 dives now - or since about 1992. Just spectra looped through the riser and lines 4 times, a series of knots sewn shut and the loose end tacked inside the riser.

I've never had a problem. I never change canopies - apart from riser/line replacement. around every 500 dives. No convenience. New links each time - or about 30 min of work.

I feel (very subjective word that..) people are putting themselves at risk for little gain. Most jumpers don't even do 500 dives in a lifetime. Of those that do, few replace risers every 500 dives or check trim/replace lines when required.

So many people have said that gear is safe that we're actually begining to beleive it. Bill Booth believes that gear is 10 times safer than those who use it - and I agree, but that doesn't mean gear is safe.

My opinion only. I've seen a lot of stuff over the last 18 years.

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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Im pretty new to this sport (62 jumps) and there is nothing i want more then to know how it all works. its not at all enough to know that it works for others and that it has worked for a long time. without understanding how it works i would have had a hard time jumping that first jump. I spent a good few days researching at first to at least know the very basics about rigs and how they operate. I personally dont understand how someone can jump out of a plane without knowing what they have on their backs to save them.

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