Zeemax 0 #1 September 29, 2003 Hey all I need a new watch so thought i would get one of those posh watches thats also an alti. Still having low jump no's (41) i will of course still use my regular alti, but it would be nice to have another one on the watch.. also i may finally look slightly cooler (never going to happen) What i need to know is, are there any that people reccomend? i've seen a couple of watches with alti's on them, but are any good for skydiving? What do other people have, where did they get them, costs etc? also anyone know what ths regs are about jumping them in the uk? thanks all Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ypelchat 0 #2 September 29, 2003 QuoteHey all I need a new watch so thought i would get one of those posh watches thats also an alti. Still having low jump no's (41) i will of course still use my regular alti, but it would be nice to have another one on the watch.. also i may finally look slightly cooler (never going to happen) What i need to know is, are there any that people reccomend? i've seen a couple of watches with alti's on them, but are any good for skydiving? What do other people have, where did they get them, costs etc? also anyone know what ths regs are about jumping them in the uk? thanks all Have a look at the SUUNTO models. The vector being the most popular of the SUUNTO line. Yves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkvapor 0 #3 September 29, 2003 I just bought the Suunto Observer (Stainless). Its a pretty neat watch. I use it when I do my CRW jumps. I would not recommend it for freefall, except for a last resort backup. It updates fairly quickly, with a new altitude about once every second. It seems very accurate in the plane and under canopy. It's visibility is not great. Its fine if you have a second or two to look over and read it, but its not going to do if you find yourself low and need to make a decision in a split second. Its also pretty expensive. My model was 350$, which is twice as much as a skydiving altimeter.. ;) But, I do love it for my CRW jumps. No big chest mount to get in my way, and its low profile enough so that I don't have to worry about it as a snag point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #4 September 30, 2003 Quotealso anyone know what ths regs are about jumping them in the uk? Section 6 Paragraph 4 (Instruments) Sub-Para 4.2 of the BPA Operations Manual states: QuoteThe minimum instrument is a serviceable non-sensitive visual read out altimeter, securely mounted in a suitable position. Alti watches such as the Casio and Suunto ones are not designed for skydiving and are sensitive instruments i.e. they are likely to read incorrectly with rapid fluctuations in air pressure. Therefore such watches contravene the rules and you should not pass a flight-line check if it is your primary means of determining your altitude. There are good reasons why important readings in aviation are given by dials i.e. the ability to quickly determine the value in a stressful environment. I have a Suunto Metron which I do wear skydiving but only as a backup to my regular alti. I find it very accurate when under canopy. It is very easy for it to be switched out of the altitude mode e.g. by bulk of a velcro cuff or the flapping of a baggy jumpsuit, and it's certainly a lot more difficult to switch it back, especially in a stressfull moment where you are better off concentrating on your track and wave-off.Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeemax 0 #5 September 30, 2003 Cool, thats what i needed to know. I had no thoughts of using it as a main alti, but thought it would be a nice addition, plus it tells the time, which is nice. Figured it would be more useful under canopy then free fall. Now i just need to find the cheapest place to buy one Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ajmclean 0 #6 November 1, 2003 I've got a Suunto Vector as well. It works great- going up, coming down, and under canopy. If by chance you know someone with access to a military exchange catalogue, they are $159 vice the normal $199. Blue SkiesMack The Knife "IT IS SAID THAT THE WARRIOR'S IS THE TWOFOLD WAY OF PEN AND SWORD, AND HE SHOULD HAVE A TASTE FOR BOTH WAYS." MIYAMOTO MUSASHI, A BOOK OF FIVE RINGS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #7 November 1, 2003 Neptune is $250 - does everthing a protrack does (and tells time), plus more. Check 'em out. I use mine as a visual alti and have nothing but good things to say about it. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #8 November 1, 2003 QuoteAlti watches such as the Casio and Suunto ones are not designed for skydiving and are sensitive instruments i.e. they are likely to read incorrectly with rapid fluctuations in air pressure. I would disagree strongly with this characterisation. I've been using a Suunto watch for the last year, and I've found it to be perfectly accurate in all situations. Because regular alti's occaisionally "stick", I'd put more trust in the readings of the Suunto then an analogue instrument. The most I've ever seen it diverge because of rapid air preasure changes is 50 feet, similar to what I've seen in a Digitude. I presume Digitudes are common in the UK. I presume a Digitude will pass a flight-line inspection. So should a Suunto. That said, I might be willing to concede that the digits can be dificult to read while in certain positions, such as freeflying. This may negate the "securely mounted in a suitable position" part. I do not recomend the Suunto to those that rely on instruments of altitude awareness, but the accuracy of the instrument has nothing to do with this assessment. _AM__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeemax 0 #9 November 4, 2003 dont suppose you know anytone do you??Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #10 November 4, 2003 QuoteI do not recomend the Suunto to those that rely on instruments of altitude awareness, but the accuracy of the instrument has nothing to do with this assessment. Andyman, can you clarify why it is that you don't recommend these for people who rely on instruments of altitude awareness, please? thanks. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #11 November 4, 2003 because you should be able to rely on your eyeballs as to what altitude you are at. somepeople on the other hand eather do not have the jumps or the mindset to look at the ground at certain altittudes. so that makes them reliant on the altitude devices....at least that is how I perceive that...I could be wrong..Andy? Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #12 November 4, 2003 QuoteQuoteI do not recomend the Suunto to those that rely on instruments of altitude awareness, but the accuracy of the instrument has nothing to do with this assessment. Andyman, can you clarify why it is that you don't recommend these for people who rely on instruments of altitude awareness, please? Well personally I have trouble reading the altitude on my suunto altimax in freefall. You have to turn your hand just right and avoid reflections. Under canopy I can read it but then I hardly ever watch it anyway (except for a high h&p, CRW etc)... Then again I don't like digital numbers anyway I prefer analog. I just use my watch when I don't expect to be jumping (going along when taking a plane to another dz, just shooting exit pics, stuff like that)... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #13 November 4, 2003 Digitudes are very uncommon in the UK... they are only just appearing. A digitude would pass a flight line check so long as it was a licensed jumper, I would be supprised if they'd let a student jump one, or even an A license at some places. I cannot imagin a sunto passing a flight line check unless the jumper was quite experianced. DZ's are wairy of change and would not like how small the face is. I have seen people jump with them, but they were senior staff at the DZ and basically a law unto themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #14 November 4, 2003 For what its worth Zee Dude, The Casios aren't worth a toss, they update too slowly, I've owned them for the last ten years or so. They make great weather stations, and act as a navigation aid when I'm out roaming the hills in typically shitty Scottish weather. If you want to know whether the Suunto will be 'allowed' in lieu of an alti, you'd need to chat with your CCI about that one. I'd be uncomfortable signing you off at flightline if it were your 'only' altitude management device.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #15 November 4, 2003 Quotebecause you should be able to rely on your eyeballs as to what altitude you are at. somepeople on the other hand eather do not have the jumps or the mindset to look at the ground at certain altittudes. so that makes them reliant on the altitude devices....at least that is how I perceive that...I could be wrong..Andy? It's not that so much, because that argument really applies to all different kinds of alti's, and my comments were specific to the Suunto. I made that comment because there are times where I find the small numbers dificult to read, specificlly when I'm freeflying. The numbers are just too small, I literally can't keep my wrist from buffeting in the wind enough to read the small numbers. When I do manage to read the numbers I've brought my wrist in inches from my nose.... I do not have this problem with larger alti's. It's specific to the Suunto. I use mine in the plane, on jumprun, around break off, which at this point which is pretty instinctive, but I mostly use it under canopy. I also use two audibles. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE813 0 #16 November 4, 2003 I have a Silva Alta that is meant to be more accurate than a suunto (accurate to within 3ft) - I have taken this up on a skydive and the update is toooo slow to be used safely as an alti.............. http://www.silva.se/outdoor/products/inst_alta.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #17 November 4, 2003 QuoteI have a Silva Alta that is meant to be more accurate than a suunto (accurate to within 3ft) The later version Suuntos, such as the Observer and S6, are accurate to within 3 feet, whereas my older Metron (and I guess the Vectors) are accurate to 10 feet. Although I'm not sure I want to be in a situation where 7 feet would make a difference! :-oSkydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #18 November 4, 2003 For all you people who stated that the numbers on the Observer/S6 are too small for easy readability, check out the Suunto X-Lander model. It has a big and _very_ well readable display, even in bright sunlight (LCD over reflective surface). The drawback on it in straight comparison is that it is measuring in 15 ft. increments. I've found the accuracy to be exact enough in both freefall and under canopy, did 2 jumps with a Watch/Baro setup just to compare. The trick on the watch under canopy is not to pay too much attention to the _exact_ number, as it's changing (decreasing) constantly. This is a drawback against a barometric alti which generally only gives an approximate value. You don't need to know you're at "555m, no 545, no 535m", "about 550m" will suffice and your eyes tell you the rest. If you're more of an eye-flyer (imho highly recommended) and judge most of your surroundings visually, then it will do the alti-job for you. On the "legal" side, i've never encountered any trouble at any DZ yet. The question which usually arose was if it was precise enough and sufficiently readable. First answer was a "yes", second answer was to show the damn thing. However, as an answer to Zeemax, i would recommend using a standard alti for as long as you would feel safe enough. COOLNESS IS A FACTOR THAT KILLS, and you're never cool when you screw up. As a skydiver, you're always cool anyways. I was very fancied when i thought of getting one, but then i thought about why. My idea was that, as it is a battery-operated device, it can fail anytime, and thus i stuck to my baro for safety. Then once one the ride up, my baros' needle froze(loose screw on the device), and i decided to still jump for three reasons; first two were my audibles and the third was that i am confident to pull at more or less the right time from eyeballing. It was then that i decided to use the watch, not before. HTH, BSThe mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base689 0 #19 November 4, 2003 > I have a Silva Alta that is meant to be more accurate than a suunto (accurate to within 3ft - 1 m) >...whereas my older Metron (and I guess the Vectors) are accurate to 10 feet - 3 m Be careful not to confuse accuracy with sensitivity. According to Silva website, they try to "sell" accuracy for sensitivity. Accuracy is the capability (once the instrument is properly calibrated) of displaying a measurement that is close to "true" value, plus minus its "accuracy". Sensitivity is the capability of "feeling" (and displaying) a change in the magnitude of the variable under measurement: any variation of plus minus "sensitivity" will be displayed. I do the following example. The barometric altimeter built-in in my eTrex Vista GPS gives the following accuracy/sensitivity data. Accuracy: 3 m - 10 ft Sensitivity: 1 m - 3 ft The above means that, once properly and "exactly" calibrated, once at a certain altitude, your altimeter will display a change in the reading any time you move up or down by 1 m - 3 ft, but that is NOT the "absolute" value, your "actual" altitude is actually within your reading plus minus 3 m - 10 ft. Example: once properly calibrated, if at a certain altitude you have a reading of, let's say, 801 m, if you move higher of 1 m, for sure you are capable to read 802 m, but your "true" altitude is at 802 m ± 3 m, i.e., you are at an altitude comprised between 799 m and 805 m. And that difference between sensitivity and accuracy is NOT a fault of the sensor (even if it is desirable to have the best sensitive altitude sensor around) in itself but instead it is a limit of the kind of measurement. Barometric altimeters simply detect variation on atmosferic pressure: the variation of barometric pressure when you move higher of 1 m - 3 ft is such a small variation, just a "breeth", that you can get such a variation in air pressure either if you start running, or if there is a sudden (small) wind gust, or similar air variation. Of course better sensors and averaging algorithms can improve the accuracy of an altimeter, but there are physical limits to the accuracy of altitude measuremnent when a barometric sensor is involved. Do the following test. Let us suppose you have a barometric altimeter with 1 m - 3 ft sensitivity and a "declared" accuracy of 1 m - 3 ft as well and let us suppose you have a bridge that is 50 m (let's say measured with a laser rangefinder) high from road to field onto its bottom, and both road on top and bottom are easily reachable. Now go on the bottom and calibrate you altimeter to read 0 m, than hike on top and take a readout of your display (and write it down onto a sheet of paper): repeat this calibration and readout on top for 10 successive days. I bet that at the end of the 10 days experiment you are capable of reading: 51 m - 51 m - 51 m......... The reality suggests me that what you will read from your piece of paper will be something like: 48 m - 53 m - 50 m - 49 m - 47 m......... I have a Suunto Advisor (which has got the same altitude sensor as the Vector)(which has got an accuracy and sensitivity of 5 m - 15 ft): when I climb our A (whose height is 115 m laser measured) and I zero it at the bottom of climb, once on top I get "strange" readings, like 80 m or 90 m or 95 m or so. The strangeness here lies in the fact that on bottom of our A we (usually) get zero wind, at mid height we experience quite a strong wind and on top we experience a slightly lower wind: the change in air pressure due to those winds make go "crazy" my barometric altimeter, while I know for sure it being accurate within plus minus 5 m - 15 ft when measuring in "normal" conditions (no wind variations from bottom to top of other laser measured objects). Just my 0.02€Stay safe out there Blue Skies and Soft Walls BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonsmann 0 #20 November 6, 2003 QuoteBe careful not to confuse accuracy with sensitivity. According to Silva website, they try to "sell" accuracy for sensitivity. Accuracy is the capability (once the instrument is properly calibrated) of displaying a measurement that is close to "true" value, plus minus its "accuracy". Sensitivity is the capability of "feeling" (and displaying) a change in the magnitude of the variable under measurement: any variation of plus minus "sensitivity" will be displayed. Actually, you got it wrong too! What you call sensitivity is really the resolution. For an electronic altimeter it would be: The pressure sensor has a sensitivity of maybe 5 mV/mbar. Sensitivity describe how sensitive one parameter (voltage) is to a change in another (pressure). Take the smallest detectable change in voltage (electronic noise level or ADC resolution) and divide with the sensitivity (mV/mbar), and you get the pressure resolution. That is the smallest detectable change in pressure. After a little algebra you can convert the pressure resolution to an altitude resolution (smallest detectable altitude change). Now you have an altimeter showing the altitude typically +- the altitude resolution. However this tells you nothing about the accuracy. The accuracy is the maximum deviation between the true altitude and the altitude measured by your altimeter. The accuracy is worse than the resolution. So the sensitivity is only important from a design point of view, not important for a user. What is important for the user is the resolution (what is the smallest altitude change I can measure) and the accuracy (How much can I trust the displayed altitude). - Jacques Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeemax 0 #21 November 9, 2003 ooo look at all these new replies..! thanks people, like i said at the start, it wouldn't be a replacement for my current alti, just another one, that also doubles as a watch. I think i may have a look at a suunto Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gulaz 1 #22 November 9, 2003 QuoteNeptune is $250 - does everthing a protrack does (and tells time), plus more. Check 'em out. I use mine as a visual alti and have nothing but good things to say about it. A guy at my DZ bought one, and he is finding that it changes from one "mode" to the other too slowly... he is under canopy for sometimes up to 20 seconds before it switches to "canopy mode", so it records 70+ seconds of freefall from 9500'. Apparently there is a new software upgrade that fixes this though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #23 November 10, 2003 What version of the software is he running? I know 1.21 is out (I'm running an older version) but haven't had the issue you described. I'd suggest upgrading to the latest version anyway as it will improve battery life of the unit. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gulaz 1 #24 November 10, 2003 Ya, hes looking to do that... not sure what hes running right now though. Other than that issue, it works great. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #25 November 10, 2003 sweet! I'll be upgrading tomorrow as well Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
