Re: [billvon] Close call; no leg straps

[bodypilot1 0]

Hasn't this has changed subject alittle?
Going from no leg straps on a Birdman jump, to a seatbelt issue.
Was this incident to to having his legstraps undone to accommadate his seatbelt?
I dont think so.
I NEVER unthread my leg straps and wouldnt suggest anyone to do so, no matter what type of suit they are jumping.
Always step into your leg straps first, is how I teach all my students.

Be safer.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[ManBird 0]

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Hasn't this has changed subject alittle?
Going from no leg straps on a Birdman jump, to a seatbelt issue.
Was this incident to to having his legstraps undone to accommadate his seatbelt?
I dont think so.
I NEVER unthread my leg straps and wouldnt suggest anyone to do so, no matter what type of suit they are jumping.
Always step into your leg straps first, is how I teach all my students.

Be safer.

Yes, this has gone off topic a bit. I presented a possible solution to the leg strap problem that would, as an aside, also solve a seatbelt issue, and we sort of veered more into the seatbelt side. Also, the jumper's leg straps were not unthreaded, but this solution would allow a check for that, as well.

I keep reading, "teach your students to put your leg straps on first" and "always put your leg straps on first". Of course I always do. I also have leg straps in gear checks for my student and myself. Any experienced wingsuit pilot does. In fact, only two (that we know about) have ever forgotten their leg straps, but that's two too many. I guarantee the jumper in this incident was taught properly and it happened anyway. When a non-wingsuited jumper gets on the plane and you notice their chest or leg straps are misrouted, you stop them and have them fix it before they board. In a wingsuit, you are removing others' ability to notice these things. It's like hiding your chest strap on every jump.

Think of all the number of things we're all taught not to do that we end out doing anyway, at just about any experience level. Don't hook up your canopy backwards. Don't put your toggle through your excess brake line. Route your chest strap through the friction adapter. Don't forget to cock your kill line PC. People do it anyway. Humans make mistakes, and often times, those mistakes are prevented by others when we notice something wrong. Best practices are made imperfect by human nature.

If wingsuit pilots don't get in the habit of allowing people to notice these things for themselves then an easily preventable mistake could make it out the door. If any third-party doesn't have anything to grab their attention, they'll let someone slip on without leg straps. We are all ultimately responsible for ourselves, but think of the tragedies that have been prevented when someone notices, without doing a gear check, that a jumper forgot to cock their PC, forgot to route their chest strap, or even forgot their rig.

There's really no compromise on the wingsuit pilot's part to leave a zipper open until they unbuckle. It has two benefits -- the revealing of at least one leg strap, and seatbelt compatibility with any aircraft. If anything, at least ask a wingsuit pilot if they've got their leg straps in order. People jokingly ask me that all the time, but I take it a little more seriously.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[Aviatrr 0]

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There's really no compromise on the wingsuit pilot's part to leave a zipper open until they unbuckle.

I, personally, don't want the front zippers open at any time I may need to exit quickly. I don't attach my booties and zip up my legs/arms until nearing jumprun....definitely not when I board as I see some people do. I've done a hop&pop with my suit on, but nothing zipped up but the front double zipper - just to see what it would be like if I have to get out low with my suit on. With the double zipper wide open, there's a chance that I'd get air into the suit on one side, and possibly spin me or make me a little unstable....which is the last thing I want during an emergency exit.

Mike

[ManBird 0]

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There's really no compromise on the wingsuit pilot's part to leave a zipper open until they unbuckle.

I, personally, don't want the front zippers open at any time I may need to exit quickly. I don't attach my booties and zip up my legs/arms until nearing jumprun....definitely not when I board as I see some people do. I've done a hop&pop with my suit on, but nothing zipped up but the front double zipper - just to see what it would be like if I have to get out low with my suit on. With the double zipper wide open, there's a chance that I'd get air into the suit on one side, and possibly spin me or make me a little unstable....which is the last thing I want during an emergency exit.

Mike

The suit should be entirely zipped up when exiting. I tried the same experiment. My left wing unfurled, inflated, and caused me to roll over... after I'd deployed. I ended up with my right risers under my right arm, which turned into an uber-mal. Chopped it low and lived, obviously. I now zip everything up upon boarding, though I will now leave one body zipper undone, so that I may check my leg straps.

If the body is unzipped on exit, it really wouldn't do much harm. People have exited with one or both zippers halfway undone... just forgot to close up. It affects performance a bit, but doesn't cause instability. Having WINGS unzipped could easily result in what I already experienced.

Not zipping up your wings and legs is not what I'd consider being ready for an emergency exit. It worked out well for you that one time. Think it'd go as well the next ten times? Without a leading edge, you have no control over your wings. Without control of your wings, it's up to the mood God is in to determine whether your wings will wreck you or not. I've done quite a few hop and pops with my wingsuit since, all fully zipped up, and they went great. If your concern is not having enough time to unzip wings or deploy, then don't be concerned. Deploying is as easy as any other time, of course. You can at least undo your arms. Pull the LQRS if you have it. Otherwise, just landed with the legs zipped in. I've done it a dozen times and only stumbled once (downwind, uninjured). Better than entangling with your canopy (believe me).

You aren't getting out under 1,000 feet, right? It takes one - two seconds to zip up the body. Unbuckle, zip up, done. Which would you rather leave with? Your leg straps off or your suit unzipped?

I stand firmly by my belief that there is no compromise on the wingsuit pilot's part to leave a zipper open until s/he unbuckles. It may be slightly inconvenient, but deploying without legstraps seems a hell of a lot more inconvenient.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[billvon 2,396]

>It takes one - two seconds to zip up the body. Unbuckle, zip up, done.

I have to be standing with tension on the body zippers to be able to zip them up. Something with how the suit fits me.

[Aviatrr 0]

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The suit should be entirely zipped up when exiting. I tried the same experiment. My left wing unfurled, inflated, and caused me to roll over... after I'd deployed.

I don't really understand how that would happen. The wings should just be trailing behind you, as they would when you unzip them after deployment. Did you have your thumbs through the loops, but the wing unzipped?

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If the body is unzipped on exit, it really wouldn't do much harm. People have exited with one or both zippers halfway undone...

Not an issue when you have your legs and arms zipped up...you can compensate for just about anything with that much wing..

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Not zipping up your wings and legs is not what I'd consider being ready for an emergency exit. It worked out well for you that one time. Think it'd go as well the next ten times? Without a leading edge, you have no control over your wings. Without control of your wings, it's up to the mood God is in to determine whether your wings will wreck you or not.

I don't see the logic here. With the wings attached at one point(the body), they will just flap behind you(or, I guess I should say, 180 degrees from the relative wind). The leg wing could be an issue...but exiting with feet and knees together should eliminate that problem....wing is trapped between your legs.

I do have the LQRS on mine, and I know that if I ever don't have time to unzip everything, it would take 2 seconds to pull all three cutaway handles on the suit.

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You aren't getting out under 1,000 feet, right?

Depends on how bad the situation is. If I feel that staying in the airplane is not survivable, I'm taking my chances outside...but that's a different topic.

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Which would you rather leave with? Your leg straps off or your suit unzipped?

Is this now an ultimatum? Does everybody HAVE to choose one? How about neither? I check my legstraps AND keep my suit zipped up. I check my legstraps differently than you do. I probably do a lot of things skydiving related different than you do. Does it make either better or worse? No. I have a procedure that I follow every jump - whether wearing a wingsuit or not - that ensures that both legstraps and chest strap are properly routed and secure. It has become engrained - just like practicing my cutaway procedures after donning the rig and as we near jumprun.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm saying you're wrong, or that you don't know what you're doing....it simply means I disagree with you, and will not be following your specific procedure in this case.

Mike

Edited to add: One of the reasons I don't zip everything up after boarding is that getting up from a sitting position if I must exit quickly isn't that easy with it all zipped up and sitting on the floor. If I need to move quickly, I want nothing restricting my movement.

[diablopilot 2]

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Having WINGS unzipped could easily result in what I already experienced.

Not zipping up your wings and legs is not what I'd consider being ready for an emergency exit.

I believe this to be extremely poor advice.

If the suit being unziped is enought to make you unstable, you need to work on you hop & pop exits.

What you sugest would also aoccur if you were forced to cutaway a arm or leg wing.

I have practiced emergency exits in the BM suit, and I will not zip arm or leg wings untill I am a comfortable margin above my inteneded deployment altitude for that skydive. Low altitude hop an pops in a fully zipped Wingsuit are a needless risk.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ManBird 0]

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I don't really understand how that would happen. The wings should just be trailing behind you, as they would when you unzip them after deployment. Did you have your thumbs through the loops, but the wing unzipped?

No.

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I don't see the logic here. With the wings attached at one point(the body), they will just flap behind you(or, I guess I should say, 180 degrees from the relative wind). The leg wing could be an issue...but exiting with feet and knees together should eliminate that problem....wing is trapped between your legs.

It's attached on one side, not at one point, and it's the wrong side (which is why we it's not recommended to unzip your wings in freefall, and why blowouts are bad). Cutting the wings away from the body in flight is OK because you still control the leading edge. If you don't control the leading edge and the wing inflates enough to take shape, it will fly in the direction it is aiming at the time. When this happens asymmetrically (one wing inflated, one wing not), it's more than enough to flip you over or spin you. If your wings don't pressurize at all, or if they both pressurize equally (unlikely), then you're good to go. I'd say the risk of major instability is high enough to want to avoid this method.

Think of what would happen on a plane if its vertical stabilizer was positioned two feet to the left, and there wasn't one on the right to counter the offset. Even if it's straight up and down, the plane is not going to fly straight. That's essentially what's happening when you have one inflated wing and one lame wing flying behind you. The leg wing would be less of an issue, because it'd most likely inflate symmetrically (unless it's being worn on one leg).

A friend of mine did, in fact, have to bailout low while wearing a wingsuit. He was fully suited and everything went just fine.

If you leave one zipper open, you have just as much chance (and maybe even a little more) of forgetting it as forgetting your leg straps, but it's the lesser of two evils, and it gives others the opportunity to notice both your leg straps and the zipper status. It allows for seatbelt compatibility on many aircraft. It also makes S&TAs and DZOs comfy that they can check your leg straps in a glance, especially in light of this incident. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

I don't think you or I will ever forget our legstraps, and there's no need to have others checking us out every step of the way. In over 370 wingsuit flights, I've paid special attention to my legstraps. But what about the guy who comes along on his first or second solo flight, more concerned with fall rate than rigging while putting on the suit, when I'm not around? By having set an example, someone else can give him a thorough gear check. It's the same reason why no one should route their chest strap around the friction adapter in a way that hides silver. It might work, but it starts to make a misrouted chest strap look normal to the impressionable and quiet jumper.

I'm not saying "hey, do this!". There are some outstanding safety issues with wingsuit flying that could and should be addressed. I'm just trying to offer the best solution I can. I'm open and hoping to hear a better one. If mistakes can be corrected by a third-party, we should let them.

I will argue, however, that exiting with your wings unzipped is unsafe and only presents addressed problems to which we really don't need to revert. All this time we've been trying to avoid blowouts because of the major instability issues. It surprises me to see what is essentially a total blowout recommended as a safe way to exit.

No one should be forgetting their leg straps. The vast majority of people won't. But this problem has happened twice. What was the solution the first time around? "Check your leg straps!" I tell that to all my students and tell them of the first guy that did it. It happened again. If we ignore it again, let's hope BirdMan suits are 3 for 3 in saving asses.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[ManBird 0]

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If the suit being unziped is enought to make you unstable, you need to work on you hop & pop exits.

OK, this is just trying to insult me here. I live in Portland, Oregon. What do think I do half of the year? The exit and deployment were stable. The wing inflated and rolled me AFTER the PC had left my hand. I've never experienced uncontrollable instability like that.

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What you sugest would also aoccur if you were forced to cutaway a arm or leg wing.

No, because you still control the leading edge and therefore the direction the wing is flying. The wing can't "get away from you". You really shouldn't be cutting away only one wing either (while in freefall).

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I have practiced emergency exits in the BM suit, and I will not zip arm or leg wings untill I am a comfortable margin above my inteneded deployment altitude for that skydive. Low altitude hop an pops in a fully zipped Wingsuit are a needless risk.

I disagree. I believe that there is more potential for instability with wings unzipped than zipped, at any experience level. And a more experienced wingsuit flyer should have no problem smoothly exiting and deploying.

Edited to add: As a side note, when I took the BM-I course at Eloy in December, the most accepted mode of wing in the plane was halfway zipped. This gives control of the area that is likely to inadvertently pressurize (elbow to shoulder), without presenting enough wing to introduce instability or hide the PC. I think this is acceptable, as well, but prefer a suit that is ready to fly.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[diablopilot 2]

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In Reply To
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If the suit being unziped is enought to make you unstable, you need to work on you hop & pop exits.

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OK, this is just trying to insult me here. I live in Portland, Oregon. What do think I do half of the year? The exit and deployment were stable. The wing inflated and rolled me AFTER the PC had left my hand. I've never experienced uncontrollable instability like that.

Calm down and don't take thing personaly. Here how's this:

"If the suit being unziped is enought to make a person unstable, that person may need to work on their hop & pop exits."

As a tandem instructor with over 500 tandems under my belt I'm pretty familiar with things that can cause instability on exit. The wings shouldn't.

As a USPA instructor I am well aware of the mindset of low time jumpers (500 jumps and under) and suggest that in an A/C emergency exit, and a possible low exit, say 3000 agl and below, they would not benifit from dealing with having to unzip wings post deployment. I mean we're teaching that these people pull no lower than 4500 AGL so they have time to deal with the complexities of the suit, to then contradict that and say exit at 2000 AGL with wings zipped does not make sense.

As one of the 2 people that helped to write one of the first instrutional wingsuit programs in the country (one that was borrowed upon for the current BMI program) I can absolutly say we never approved of zipping the arms suit up prior to being above your intened deployment altitude. Legs were optional.

Steve: Just because I disagree, and thing your advice is bad doesn't mean I'm insulting you. I'm agains your ideas, not you. Some more experience and perspective might change your ideas.

billvon: Maybe we could snip some of this off topic stuff and move it to the wingsuit forum?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ManBird 0]

Just being flip in that first remark. Here...

I live in Portland blah blah ;)

Is what I meant. I disagree with your advice and my opinion is fact. Just kidding. This is the point where we agree to disagree and go on living. Kind of like the cutaway a PC in tow discussion (don't actually comment).

I do agree that this thread, at least the last portion, should be moved over to the wingsuit forum. There are a lot of valid points from every side that might get missed in here. I'm happy with the fact that there is at least some proactive discussion regarding these matters. What's important is that we at least look busy. ;)

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[diablopilot 2]

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What's important is that we at least look busy. ;)

Nice one!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ManBird 0]

I thought about it a bit more this weekend. I think that right now we're in this place where some procedures that occur before flight aren't set in stone, but don't need to be. When we became BM-Is, we weren't really taught what to teach in regards to bailout procedures or boarding aircraft with wingsuit-incompatible seatbelts. In this fairly new and definitely growing form of skydiving, I find that it's our job to determine what to teach students in regards to issues that weren't considered when we became BM-Is.

I don't have the jumps or time in the sport that a lot of you do, so I do look to the more experienced jumpers that were part of addressing safety issues in disciplines. I think the PC in tow emergency procedures is a good parallel to our current debate. You've got advantages and disadvantages to either method. The recommendation is to pick one and stick with it.

I think we can still narrow down the process that happens between donning the suit and exiting the aircraft to maybe two or three options. I don't think everyone will see eye-to-eye on one process, and we will all have very good reasons to back what we choose. Rather than fight about who's right, I think the best thing to do is to fully understand and accept what options are available and what their advantages and disadvantages are.

With regards to teaching, should we provide all options to a student and let them choose one or just teach them what we think is right? Giving them options might confuse or overwhelm them, but only teaching one process may be a major disservice if they determine that they don't like your method upon the discovery of others.

Sincerely,
Undecided

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I mean we're teaching that these people pull no lower than 4500 AGL so they have time to deal with the complexities of the suit, to then contradict that and say exit at 2000 AGL with wings zipped does not make sense.

Just a quick comment on this. I do teach students how to modify their post-canopy opening procedures in this scenario. I just take what I teach them to do in the event of a reserve ride, and apply it to a bailout -- just free your arms and pull the LQRS. If there's no LQRS I recommend to waddle on landing and be ready to PLF. Students tend to burn a lot of altitude unzipping their legs. Focus on flying the canopy and landing safely. Basically, the BASE style post-canopy opening procedures with the addition of pulling the LQRS.

I sense another debate coming on. When is this thread gonna get moved? (Edit) Thanks!

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[LouDiamond 1]

Since this thread has drifted from a leg strap issue to a emergency exit procedure issue, here are my thoughts on it as I posted them at flybirdman and as they still remain after having to deal with an emergency bail out this weekend. The only difference is that we knew where the DZ was in this situation and chose to fly instead of deploying.

While everyone has what they feel comfortable with or how they envision it will happen, one thing needs to be taken into account. Regardless of your arms/legs being zipped/unzipped one should be exiting with your hands on your cutaway/reserve handle for a low altitude emergency exit and immediately cutaway/deploy reserve after exiting the A/C. For those who zip legs up before or soon after boarding the A/C the important thing to remember is to keep your leg wing closed down.

None of this is new since the initial body position when launching an exit is with all wings shut down and you've all done it before. Stability shouldn't be an issue since you are pulling right out of the door.


As for Higher altitudes( 1500ft and up) that IMO is no different than a low altitude emergency exit in that you don't know where you are getting out at so why hum it down or attempt to fly. Again it should be handled as a clear and pull(main canopy) and then you can deal with your zippers and orienting yourself and finding an out while you have all that altitude. The best bet is to have a plan, your own personal plan, before your on the A/C, as to how you will handle a given emergency situation. The 3 critical things that need to be addressed in an emergency exit high or low are:

1: Get out of the A/C
2: Deploy a parachute. ( 1500 and lower on reserve;1500 and higher on main. There are different school of thought on what altitude dictates which chute you deploy. You choose which you prefer)
3: Find a safe place to land BEFORE you are 200 feet off the ground.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[ManBird 0]

Four of us birdpeople tried out this plan this past weekend. Two of us spoke with the DZO and S&TA for some further imput and think we've got something pretty sound. I took some photos of the plan in action, but am going to get a few more to paint the whole picture a bit better.

TALONSKY put his suit on without his legstraps (intentionally and did not jump that way). I walked in, not knowing he what he was doing, and thought our call was cut down. It was, of course, unnoticeable to anyone except himself (who mentioned that it felt as though he had a load in his pants).

So we donned our suits, legstraps in place, and left one body zipper open. It totally exposes one leg strap and partially exposes the other. Another birdperson was actually boarding with both zippers undone and, of course, both legstraps were highly visible. Our leg wings are zipped before boarding.

The Caravan we jump (until an Otter comes back) has seatbelts that hook up to legstraps. We found that by side-saddling the bench (to not take any extra room), we were belted in without the use of seatbelt extenders. We zipped our arms up before take off. At 1,000', we all unbuckled and zipped up.

Yes, zipping up while seated is different than doing it standing up, but it still took less than three seconds. I filmed this process. You just zip in 10-inch-or-so segments, rather than in one fell swoop. Hold the zipper together in one hand and close the zipper with the other. Think of a very full, but not overly stuffed, gym bag. It's like that. It goes quickly. We were all fully in our suits and ready to exit by 1,200', without rushing. As a side effect, it was noted by all that zipping up in the plane forces a chest strap check... definitely a bonus. Like every other process in wingsuit flying, you get faster as you go along (like unzipping your legs after opening).

I agree with Scott in that, regardless of suit configuration, if you are exiting so low that you need to go right to your reserve, you should exit in a manner that allows you open your reserve ASAP... hand on your handle, keep those wings collapsed. I recommend that at any altitude where you would anticipate using your main, your arm wings should be zipped, at a minimum, past the elbows, preferably all the way. This is to maintain control over the leading edge of the wings. The leg wing is less important in this situation. Zipped up and ready to go is highly recommended, but if that isn't the case and you're in a bailout situation, just keep your feet together.

Objective advantages are that this process exposes your leg straps, allows use of any type of seatbelt, and promotes an extra chest strap check. A fourth, subjective, advantage is that this process puts the suit in a ready-to-fly configuration shortly after removing seatbelts, which is a subjective advantage.

I see no objective disadvantage in this process. Subjective disadvantages are that having the body zipper open in the plane at all, or having the suit fully zipped up at a relatively low altitude is not ideal for a bailout situation.

Four people participated in this process over ten jumps, and will do so again this weekend. Jumpers were as follows:

S3 / 370+ WS jumps / 700+ jumps / 5 WS jumps this weekend
S3 / 100+ WS jumps / 700+ jumps / 1 WS jump this weekend
GTi / 4 WS jumps / ~300 jumps / 2 WS jumps this weekend
GTi / ~50 WS jumps / 2000+ jumps / 2 WS jumps this weekend

Comments, suggestions, welcome.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[ManBird 0]

A wingsuit flyer that I'd mentioned this process/theory to has been leaving both zippers open before boarding. Because of this, a (single) missing leg strap was caught and corrected before the jumper boarded today. Granted, the jumper may have caught it upon getting zipped up, but then again it may not. Point being, it's easy to skip a leg strap or two by accident, and it was caught by leaving the body zippers open.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[bodypilot1 0]

Glad it was caught before exit.Was this do to a rushed gear up?

Be safe...r

-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[ManBird 0]

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Was this do to a rushed gear up?

Yes.

Post edited a bit for "benefit of the doubt" reasons.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[petetheladd 0]

This really baffles me and leaving zippers open specifically so people can catch mistakes is naff. Get a gear check.

I dont know how anybody else does it but I lay my suit, face up, on the floor.

I sit down on it, lift the legstraps out of the leggings and put my legs through them and then stuff my legs in the wingsuit.

It beats me how anyone can just stuff their legs into the wingsuit leggings and hope they've lassoed a leg during the process.

It would seem like the most elementary thing to teach a new flyer, how to properly don the suit.

Even doing it this way, I still do a feel and stretch to make sure both legs are in the harness and the straps hav'nt loosened on the ride up.

P.t.L.

P.S. I do not leave chest zippers open so others can check me over in the plane

No, Not without incident

[ManBird 0]

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This really baffles me and leaving zippers open specifically so people can catch mistakes is naff. Get a gear check.

It really baffled the jumper, too, as this jumper is experienced with wingsuits and very experienced with skydiving in general. In all honesty, I find it strange, too. I've put the suit on without leg straps, just to see what it feels like. It feels really weird. But it still happens.

I think the point is getting missed here. You can tell people to get a gear check until you're blue in the face. If they are injured or killed, you can wash your hands and say, "Hey, they didn't get a gear check like I told them to." One could argue that others are just as liable for not offering a gear check. However, the goal should not be accountability -- it should be safety. People forget to ask for gear checks and people forget to offer them -- that's the reality. If there isn't something there to look right or wrong when no gear check takes place, you have a disaster waiting to happen. It's happened (at least) twice.

The negative and positive attributes of this process are listed in a previous post. If anyone finds a way to retain (or add to) the positive attributes and reduce the negative, I'm all ears. We're still working at this process. The Otter is back at SDO now, so we didn't need to have the suit open to use the seatbelts. On a couple loads, we left our body zippers open right up until boarding, as the plane was arriving. It was on one of these loads that the missing leg strap was caught. So, we didn't have to have our suits open on the plane, and the legstraps were exposed for long enough to catch the error. This takes away some inconvenience with little to no compromise in gear checking. It also allows to you be zipped up and ready to fly right after you board.

The only way to notice the leg straps is if they are exposed. The only way to expose the leg straps is by leaving the body zippers open.

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It would seem like the most elementary thing to teach a new flyer, how to properly don the suit.

Do you really believe that a BM-I isn't teaching someone to don the suit properly? After someone puts the suit on correctly fifty or a hundred times in a row, and then messes it up once, are you really going to blame their instructor? Does the instructor have permanent control over a wingsuit pilot's leg? In the most recent incident (which spawned this thread), I'm willing to bet my S3 that the student was properly instructed on how to don the suit. People make mistakes. Having a routine with backups just makes too much sense. If the student (or wingsuit flyer of any experience level) forgets one step in the routine, another step that was taken can point out the error.

To paraphrase another -- a wingsuit flight is an exceptional skydive that requires exceptional safety measures.






PS

Exited at 3,800' in my S3 yesterday and flew it down to 2,500'. Even threw in a front loop. This may just be me, but I say there's really no reason to be afraid of a low(er) altitude exit in a wingsuit. :)

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[petetheladd 0]

Yo MB,

I agree with most everything you are saying.

Its just that pulling the legstraps out and putting your legs in them then stuffing your legs into the suit would kinda gaurantee the straps are around your legs.

How do BMI's do it ?

PtL

No, Not without incident

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I put my rig on in a chair. I unzip everything, then hold both the legstrap and suit leg opening together and put my leg through, one side then the other. I put my arms through the rig and the arm openings then I "hop up and down" until I am in the suit/rig. I pull the collar up around my neck then I tighten my legstraps to "ready to skydive" tightness, then I zip my two main zippers up at least as high as my chest strap before then running it through the fastner and stowing the excess.

It fascinates me that this has happened more than once. In my gear check of fellow birdies I always touch the front of the legs where the legstraps should be.

Chuck
BMCI

[ManBird 0]

I generally teach the same chair technique that Chuck just mentioned (or ground if no chair is available). I personally put it all on standing up. What makes a really big difference, IMO, is where the leg straps are in relation to the suit's leg before putting on the suit. I aim to keep the leg strap very visible and intrusive in the donning process. More outside the "pants" than inside. If it's outside the suit and you manage to miss it, you'll have a lot of trouble zipping up (saw someone don the suit like this in Eloy... of course s/he caught it and fixed it right away). If the leg strap is all the way in, it's easier to slide your leg in and think that it went through the leg strap, when it was actually put off to the side.

Here's another way to look at the unzipped-suit-before-boarding thingy. If you're getting a gear check, technically, you'll need to unzip the suit to get the leg straps checked. May as well just leave the suit open for all gear checks, rather than zip/unzip a few times.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[ManBird 0]

Quote

In my gear check of fellow birdies I always touch the front of the legs where the legstraps should be.

Be careful with that. A sudden move could result in a handful of dude package. This method of checking the leg straps requires the stealth, speed, and accuracy of a ninja, and maybe a little time in the military or prison.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[notsane 0]

I doubt that Chuck would even hesitate to help out a fellow Bird-person because he might get a "handful of dude package". I'm sure he weighs it against the occasional "clam-bump".