(Spinetto + GTi) / Chop = New Policy

[ManBird 0]

I let a friend of mine, Jared, borrow my GTi. He has about 700 jumps, and is familiar with his Stiletto 120. I and others warned him about the potential dangers. Basically, he's pretty heads up, and if he's familiar with this canopy, and if only half or so of the people out there have run into major problems with their Spinetto and a wingsuit, I figured he had a 50/50 chance of survival. ;)

In flight, he's pretty natural. 65 down on his first ride and decent deployment. On the second flight, he got 60 down, and we even put in a couple over/ unders. However, his deployment (at 4,000 ft) happened in a slight rotation. It was enough to give him the classic Spinetto mal. He pulled the wing cutaway (I've always wondered what those thingys were), and tried to fight it a bit. Chop, stable, reserve ride (all at good altitudes). His Raven collapsed on final, and threw him hard on his back (same thing happened on mine... I have a PD-R now), but he's for the most part, just fine.

I came out with two lessons learned and two missing cables. Lesson one is that if I lend the suit out, the new wingsuit flyer will not jump anything that can be spiraled with harness input. Lesson two is that I will emphasize practice pulls as much as I emphasize not hitting the plane.

This wingsuit stuff is still fairly new at Skydive Oregon, and policy is still being established. Policy isn't bad here... it's a good scapegoat. The policy is now that if you have 25 or less wingsuit jumps, you may not fly an elliptical, and you must have a Cypres. This adds to the no-pond-swooping-with-the-wingsuit on "policy" (I think we are still allowed, but it is advised against). It's a good thing. When I tell someone they can't jump my suit with their Crossfire 2 until they have 25 jumps on one (and have their opening without rotation down), there won't be any beef with me... it's the rules. :)

My black and red GTi is now a dirt brown color... and doesn't have any cables. Until new flyers have their openings under control, please, practice touches and docile canopies.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[Viking 0]

what kind of body position would cause a rotation? Uneven arms? non collapsed leg wing?

also how did his reserve collapse?! thats scarier than the Mal itself!

I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

[ManBird 0]

Assymmetry of the arms or tail will rotate you.

His reserve collapsed because it was a Raven, and he flared. Mine did the same thing once, and my helmet kept my head from cracking open.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[bbarnhouse 0]

I happen to know Jared and he is a capable flyer. I also am in agreement with the policies at SDO. They always put safety first.
I don't fly my stiletto on wing-suit jumps nor would I on a board jump.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

I happen to know Jared and he is a capable flyer. I also am in agreement with the policies at SDO. They always put safety first.
I don't fly my stiletto on wing-suit jumps nor would I on a board jump.

Good , you make me proud

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[VectorBoy 0]

Lesson two is that I will emphasize practice pulls as much as I emphasize not hitting the plane.
__________________________________________________
I had a very nasty spin up down through the risers on my cobalt. I was 90 degrees out on the horizon from my canopy. Probably my nastiest ever, even though I tipically get the best deployments on my wingsuit. One smooth action chopped my wings without looking down to find the loop and had my main & reserve handles in hand. Wing cuttaways still wrapped around my thumbs. A split second before my main chose to fly straight and level letting the twists resolve themselves while I hung there in wonderment of how fast I reacted properly. Wing cuttaways down my shirt and a smile on my face.
It could happen on any canopy! Practice those pulls every time. Glen

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

That's a very, very good point. Having your EP's down is critical to safe flights under smaller canopies. Hell, under any canopy for that matter. Things can get ugly extremely fast and if you do not have your gear in order and your shit together you are going to find yourself in the hurt locker. I know, I have been there and very nearly paid the ultimate price.

That said, I have been jumping very-small canopies with my wingsuits since my first flight. I jumped my 107 Stilletto once, just because that was all I had packed, but other than that, I have never jumped larger than an 85 in my suits. I have been jumping my Velocity 79 for quite some time now with no problems whatsoever, but just today I got my "real" wingsuit canopy: a Sabre2 97. Small and zippy, able to fit in my XRS, but still a MUCH smarter choice for wingsuit flights. The custom embroidery is bad-ass as well!

Chuck

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

His reserve collapsed because it was a Raven, and he flared.

I realy do not wish to start an argument, but a Raven flairs just fine. Most people who stall one out just are not familiar with how to fly one. A 7cell low porosity canopy flys different from a 9cell loaded ZP eliptical.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[VectorBoy 0]

This was a concern of mine this past weekend flying crew and being loaded up with twenty pounds of lead. Not landing the lightning but my rumoured missbehaving and under capable reserve at 1.3 . I think I need a test flight.

[Zenister 0]

grrr thats going to put wingsuit flight farther out, as i'll need ANOTHER 150 to begin to play...well i guess i could fly my mirage with the sabre 190, but its wont have a cypress pretty soon...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Faber 0]

I jumped my crossfire most of my wingfligths,i once had 2 twists in such a jump,but the canopi just flew straigth until the last 1/2 twist were kicked out,then it gave me a quick 360 before i flew normal.Its the only time i ever had problems by my canopi under wingfligths(ie i dont have many of them).How ever as i get more fat,older and still not abel to run much after my acccident,then i´ll get an Sabre 120 instead.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[flyhilo2 0]

I am a newbi at wing suit jumping I have 10 jumps on a SF 9 of the jumps were non evenfull except when I tried a barrel
role went around 6 times enstead of one but the 10 jump was different I weigh 270 out the door on a diablo 190 loaded to 1.4 I had a stable throw out but felt the bag hit my right foot, I could not believe how fast that big canopy could spin ( I thought I was going to hurl) I unziped my arms and kicked out of it but it took a long time I started around 4 and go open around 2 so my lesson is I will start the opening sequence around 5 until I figure out how to correct this.

[TALONSKY 0]

I have about 40 GTI wingsuit jumps using a Crossfire 2 130 wing loaded at 1.8 to 1, and I never have had any line twist. I recently got a Skyflier 3 and( my rig for birdman jumps has a Crossfire 1 129) my first deployment I threw out very lightly(do to different pull technique needed for the S3) and ended with 5 line twist. I unzipped and kick out of them but ever since that jump when it comes pull time I throw the PC as hard as I can. I have another 6 jumps on the suit and so far have had great openings after changing pull techniques and going to a more aggressive throw. Oh, when I bought my S3 I also bought the 9’ bridle PC.
Kirk

[ManBird 0]

Yeah, it's a tough call. That's why Jared was warned, and not prevented, against a Stiletto and early wingsuit jumps. You definitely can fly your wingsuit under a loaded elliptical, but until you've got your deployment dialed in, you probably shouldn't. We're still figuring it out.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[flyhilo2 0]

Now that I think about it I was not as aggresive on my throw out as I have in the past it was more to the side and level instead of up and out. What kind of speed are you getting at the low end I am around 76 on my last jump. How slow should or can I get at 270lbs (I am on a diet)?

[LouDiamond 1]

I don't know what most of you are talking about. I have jumped all 3 versions of the suit, minus the SF3, and have not had a hard time finding the hack, or with throws. In fact, I've had a few less than what I'd call good throws and I still had no issues with deployment. I don't have an extended bridle or any BM mods on my rig either.I have witnessed others have difficult openings and the one common denominator I have found is poor body position before and during deployment that causes problems for most. Compound that with a twitchy canopy and the results get ugly quick.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[TALONSKY 0]

I currently weigh 240 LBS out the door and on my GTI I have hit the a low of 62 MPH for a complete part of the dive. Meaning I do not have the jump track soft ware so the 62 is an average over 55 seconds. I still am working on fine tuning the S3 but started out at 63 MPH as a low.
Kirk

[TALONSKY 0]

I have had very few problems deploying and none finding the hack on the GTI with over 120 jumps on it, but with the S3 I found it hard to get the wing tip stiffener out of my hand and get my entire hand on the hack. On my first deployment with the S3, I made 2 attempts to get the stiffner out of my hand and ended pulling with it in my hand so my throw was alittle week. I do not know if my body position was bad but I ended with line twist. Since the first jump I have had nothing but great deployments and the only thing I have consciencously change was how hard I throw .
Kirk

[ManBird 0]

Some of my weak throws have resulted in PC hesitations. I haven't missed the hack yet (163 GTi, 2 SF1, 10 SF3). Line twists have 99% of the time been body position/rotation on deployment.

One time, though, on my unmodded Racer, I know 100% for sure that I was flying straight. The heading didn't change one bit, and the lines were twisting before the canopy was even out of the bag. Wait... then again. My theory is that this was either due either to hitting the bottom of the container on the way out, or clearing air on one side when I looked up too early.

A PC hesitation/weak throw, theoretically, should not give you twists, as the lines are still in the container. Once the PC catches air, it should behave the same whether it hesitated or not.

What were we talking about?

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[kimgriffin 0]

I would not go blaming the Stiletto (or any other canopy) until you REALLY know what part of your gear is at fault.

We have found that line twists often come from: 1. A short or even normal bridle, 2. a weak or small pilot chute, 3. the bag getting stuck for even a split second in the container.

Of course, if you are looking over your shoulder at pull time or aesymetrical in other ways it can also cause line twists.

Of course, if you jump a square canopy at a lower wingloading these factors will affect your canopy in a less drastic manner. You may not notice it at all.

But if you want to have the performance that semi ellipicals offer and a you want to keep your speed up with a higher wingloading, you may want to consider these things:

28" zp pilot chute
100 inch bridle
open WS corners on your main container
(It is ideal but not necessary to have WS corners - so the main flaps come completely open. At least, make sure you are packing with your gromet up or pointed towards the main pilot chute and that your bag comes out of your rig without snagging the corners.)

Also, if you have not had a reline in a few hundred jumps, you may want to have your mfg reline it for you. It's a sure sign that your canopy is out of trim when you start to get funky openings or line twists.

I know lots of jumpers here in DeLand who jump the Stiletto and wingsuit. A BMI 185lb guy here in DeLand jumps the Stiletto 120 and even with out modifying his gear in any way. He just packs his main grommet towards his pilot chute. And he's happy with his openings. Shit, Jari jumps his 75 Velociy with his S3. But, I don't remend to do as Jari does

My 3 cents (inflation)... Kim

-Kimberly Griffin

[ManBird 0]

Right, I'm not blaming the canopy at all. The line twist was the result of poor body position. It's the severity of the line twist I'm addressing. My Sabre 120 flies straight in line twists. A loaded Stiletto often spins due to line twists. When first jumping the wingsuit, you're more apt to have a poor body position on deployment, thus giving you line twists.

I have all the mods Kim mentioned, and they are highly recommended. There was a noticeable difference between what happened after deployment in my unmodded Racer Elite and my fully modded Wings.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[kimgriffin 0]

Sorry, Steve. Didn't mean to sound like a know it all or anything like that.

I still have to remind myself sometimes to keep my head looking straight forward as I throw my PC out. (Of course, I have looked around and above me before that.)

Well, and I also switched to the Sabre2 (97). I think I could try cartwheeling at pull time and it would still fly straight.

So glad you are enjoying your S3. Hope we can fly together sometime. You coming to Rantoul?

~Kim (up way too early on Sat morning)

-Kimberly Griffin

[ManBird 0]

Just noticed this post. Nope, no Rantoul. "Maybe next year". Money/vacation time just isn't there. The S3 is a lovely beast. Unfortunately, after eleven jumps, the weather started to suck and it has stayed that way, so it's been hop and pops like crazy.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[effinjump 0]

All very good advice! And depending on the canopy, I'll add that i can sometimes be critical that the harness/container system is perfectly aligned with your body. Most of us ensure that our leg straps are tightened perfectly even with each other without realizing that our legs could have significantly different diameters. It has been my experience that athletic body types and certain others are more likely to encounter a large variation. This means that setting leg straps evenly could produce opening characteristics similar to what occurs when leaning to one side during deployment. On that next cloudy day, grab the soft tape and check yourself out. :-)

Rob Tonnesen

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom" -Anais Nin

[ManBird 0]

Ah, yes. I second that, and I keep forgetting to inform others that are starting in it that your legs straps need to fit the same on each leg. Most people without a flight cannot fathom how different wingsuit flying is from skydiving, and unfortunately do not make the biggest effort to tighten down their gear.

Another recommendation, if not requirement, is the pre-wingsuit tracking dive. I did 25 of these before my first wingsuit flight, and the suit still took me by surprise. I strongly recommend at least five to ten mock-wingsuit tracking dives within two weeks of your first flight. No matter how excited you are to fly that new or borrowed suit for your first flight, do a solo wingsuit-style tracking dive immediately before you put the suit on.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click