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themaninblack

can I jump my old vector II with a birdsuit?

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Ok bottom line: I'm an extremely low-budget skydiver. I don't have my own helmet yet, been borrowing an old pro-tec the dz used to use as student gear before they chucked em into the never-used gear bin when they upgraded the student gear to boneheads. I dont even have a jumpsuit yet, jumping in jeans and t-shirt or a variety of carefully chosen sweatshirts. To be realistic I cant consider myself decently equipped until I've blown another huge wad-o-cash on other hardware...Bonehead:$2-300
jumpsuit:$2-300
pro-track:300$
software for track:150-ish?
I spent all my money this year on aff course and subsequent jumping every chance I got....the cool hardware toys which you CAN jump without are luxuries...the jumping itself, however, is not a luxury....it is a necessity....although my costume plays hell with matching fall rates doing rw with people in tight slick suits. So I jump, unfashionably sparsely equipped with old hardware. I bought a rather well-used complete rig from the dzo, as cheap a rig as I could find that was still solid build quality in airworthy shape and suited my needs for $2,000 consisting of:
1 beat up faded black 1991 Vector II V5 container with boc:
1 basic black and gray 1988 pd 210 9-cell main:
1 1991 raven II reserve, no reserve rides, screaming hot fluorescent pink....I believe the specs describe it as "magenta"
1 cypres, 5 years left on it.
I was warned by several experienced jumpers not to do anything other than basic bellyfly with this rig since it had no bridle protection and nearly slack pin-cover flaps, as well as worn out velcro on the riser covers, lousy grommets and a number of other items that needed looking into. I waited till the rig was paid off and was due for a reserve repack, at which time I had the rigger do a major overhaul/upgrade at the same time to make the rig freefly-worthy. Fresh velcro everywhere, solid. New grommets, especially the closing loop retainer which was so trashed it scared me...a new boc pouch, MUCH tighter, relocated a bit closer to the edge of the container...reinforced cover flaps with some kind of stretchy fabric elastic retainer sewn on which works so well I often go to repack and find the top cover still closed to the top flap...seems the bridle just pushes it off to the side a ways and pulls the pin out from between the covers. And a bridle protection pocket sewn on between the boc and the covers, I now have zero exposed bridle. The verdict: after a number of jumps in a crude sitfly or on my back I have zero issues with this rig...although it looks shabby as hell next to everyone else's Mirage g3's Racers Wings and Voodoo rigs, it seems tight as hell to me (tight like good way not tight as in uncomfortable tight)and it lets me do what i want in the air for a HELL of a lot less than something new flashy and expensive. Now I'm fairly sure I would be advised against trying to use a stock vector this old for a birdsuit, but what about this modified tight version? Can I Birdman this thing? Or am I going to have to resign myself to spending thousands more on new harness/container to go with the suit when I get one? I like this shabby old rig and am in no hurry to downsize, couldnt afford to anyway, and I hope to get several more years out of this thing. If it IS unsuitable for birding, could you tell me why, and what I could do about it to MAKE it worthy? (besides the cut-corners mod ive already read about)
Sorry about writing a novel here but I felt that a detailed description of the rig and mods already done would save people the trouble of telling me to fix stuff thats already handled, as well as explaining why I took the trouble to overhaul/upgrade such an old rig...My budget simply can't support the megabuck flashy gear. If I have to go new, so be it, I'll do whatever it takes to get into Bird mode, but before i discard the old rig I'd want to see some serious convincing reason for not using it to bird...New Gear Nazis, the same people who keep asking me why I refuse to retire my 20 year old 4x4, have a new container and main every 6 months and trade in their s.u.v every year sneered at my trusty old vector when I said I was going to fix it up for freefly. The usual response was something like "eewww, THAT old thing? yeah you could fix it up, but why bother wasting money on it when you could just go out and buy a brand-new...."
Gimme a break. It's the same reason I drive the old 4x4....it WORKS, don't it? It works just fine. I wanna birdsuit the sucker. will it work?
evolution WILL be served, one way or another!!!! im not jumping, im imitating a reluctant meteor.

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You should be just fine. I have no mods on my current rig, which is a similarly old clunker (though I finally have a new Wings on the way), and the only problems I've had were caused by me, and not my rig. But do put a 9' bridle and 22" pilot chute on there to cut back tows... a norm for any rig.

If there is a lot of slack in the bridle between the BOC and the pin, even if it's well-covered, I wouldn't recommend backtracking or barrel rolls. It's one thing to have a premature deployment... it's another to have one with your bridle wrapped around you.

Open corners would definitely reduce the likelihood of line twists, but a good deployment and pack job can pretty much eliminate that. Besides, line twists on a PD-210 will be recoverable 95% of the time.

But if you're still getting started, put the wingsuit off a bit. They aren't that tough too fly, but a minor mistake or situation can put you in a really uncomfortable (dangerous) situation (ie flat spin on deployment, severe line twists, super-fucked-up exits, crazy-intense openings, blow-outs, PC in tow, etc) that i easily resolved so long as you're able to remain calm (ie if you're hyperventilating just thinking about the suit, don't do it).

My 6¢.

- Mac

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Go check some posts I made about Freeflying a Vector II a while back in the Gear & Rigging forum. I put about 100 FF jumps on an old beat up Vector II after a few mods. It was "relatively" safe, but I refused to go headdown with it. Eitherway it should answer some questions that you have concerning doing anything but RW on a VII.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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I agree with Mac on this, you need to get a lot more jumps in before worrying about flying a birdman suit. Now the birdman web site recommends 500 jumps before jump one. On the web site they state it is more about jump maturity than jump number. I know for myself I started jumping a GTI at around 400 jump, the scariest scenarios I have been in have been with this suit. I have had a hard pull. Which may not be scary, until adding not perfect form on deploying in a wing suit and the result got my main out (not very well kind of head down at that point). I also had a jump were I was on my back spinning with my canopy (at this time it was a Sabre 170) spun up but luckily not spinning up more. I personally feel that the amount of jumps I had gave me the maturity to deal with each situation well. Honestly, if these two scenarios had come a lot earlier in my skydiving career I wonder if I would have dealt with them as calmly and clear headed as I did.
Play safely and have fun
Kirk

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Due to having my Voodoo out on a reserve repack, I used my old 89' vector two for weekend of wing suit flite. The big difference between the two rigs, as far as wing suit deployments are concerned is that my old V-2 has a much wider yolk and if I don't have the chest strap really tight the main lift web tries to slide down off your shoulder at deployment. Ever have the sensation of flying straight out of your rig? It will give you glorious goober pucker!
Another thing I do is pack with the gromet facing the closing loop.
After getting the advice of many-many experienced jumpers , riggers and manufacturers I felt perfectly at ease freeflying this rig. I wasn't alone in this situation and I don't believe anybody gave us any dirty stares. We have all seen skysurfers perform many incredible maneuvers with similar rigs in the past.
That being said this old Vector can't compare with my new Voodoo or probably any newer rig in fit, comfort and safety. And thats in any discipline of skydiving. If you are going to be around jumping for a while you are going to want to get better gear and that impulse will come from within.
Even used newer gear could be had pretty reasonably if you are keeping your eyes open for it.
Wing suits aren't cheap either. You will have to be currant to be able to fly them , again more money. Be safe and good luck. Glen.

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Advise on the birdman site - if you aren't comfortable freeflying in you rig, don't use it for a suit



I am going to go on record as disagreeing with this. Wingsuit flying is nothing like freeflying, and so long as you have a BOC throw-out, you will be fine.

Now, there are certainly things you can do to make it easier on yourself, like getting a nine-foot bridle and a decent pilot chute. You already have the BOC, so you are set in that area. Most older Vector 2 containers are flat to your back and as such, it's probably impractical to rotate the bag so that the grommet is facing the pin. Still, if your Vector 2 is small enough to do that, I recommend it.

The ONLY things that you really need to have are a BOC, a main that does not spin up on you easilly, a smooth flying style; besides that, everything else is probably fluff. Tiny little rigs need more attention. Your Vector 2 will be fine. They open easilly and in wingsuit flight the freefly mods will be unneccessary; trust me.

Chuck Blue (Not Tom Wood)
D-12501
BM-I among other things
Hearts & Minds
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Home of the Coconut Lounge, Spa, & Artillery Range

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Just a few backups...

Quote

Quote

Advise on the birdman site - if you aren't comfortable freeflying in you rig, don't use it for a suit



I am going to go on record as disagreeing with this. Wingsuit flying is nothing like freeflying, and so long as you have a BOC throw-out, you will be fine.



I agree completely. Your rig stays so burbled that the extra coverage "needed" for freeflying doesn't apply to flying a wingsuit, with the exception of backtracking.

I also agree and emphasize the point that not rig, including my Racer Elite, can accomodate a grommet to pin pack.

VectorBoy's comment about the wider yolk on some older rigs is right on. You should see what I have to do with my chest strap to get it tight and in place.

As TalonSky said, the key really is maturity. When passion and responsibility replace vanity and risk, it's about time to try on a suit.

- Mac

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been borrowing an old pro-tec the dz used to use as student gear before they chucked em into the never-used gear bin when they upgraded the student gear to boneheads.



Nothing to add except (and this is off-topic) but your DZ (Pepperell?) has Boneheads for the students?! Cool. Could be a shrewd move by Jeanie. Can't beat a ProTec for shock absorbancy and protective padding though.

And they put the old helemts in the "never-used" bin?!?!

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