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kevin922

landing a birdman suit.. it IS doable..?

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I've given some more thought to the possibility, and am realizing a few things. Zaz can land his VX 68 with weights straight in and I can match his flight. This is because a canopy can be flared. Awhile ago, I started working on "flaring" the wingsuit as much like a canopy as I could...



Have you tried flaring next to Zaz while he is flaring up high?? This might give you a good reference to go by.
Jason
Naked BASE #15

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Good point, Jason. That would be a great way to judge ones "flare power" in a suit. This, of course, assuming you are already to the skill level where you can fly relative with a small performance main. There are VERY few people who are even at that level of proficiency, so it's not realistic that we will have anyone_anytime_soon trying this stunt. I don't know of a single wingsuit experienced wingsuit pilot who realistically contemplates this.

As to the rigid wing theories, I discount anything of the sort. Plenty of people already land gliders and airplanes. If it's not the new generation of "safe" wingsuits which we currently jump, of something truly of the sort, then we are veering away from the topic of this thread.

Is it possible to match the grade of a sloped surface in freefall? Absolutely, We have all seen the video of Loic doing exactly that in Verbier, but we also know how fast he was going as he zoomed past the cameras. Leading with your head, unprotected except for a skydiving helmet and having your arms secured back at the angle your suit restricts you to, what do you think your chances of sliding that landing out without breaking your neck? I say very, very slim. Even with some sort of skid plate rigged to your torso to elevate you up a bit (sort of like a skeleton sled), you then have to deal with stopping the thing. Not me bro, and I have a lot of fucking wingsuit experience. Not with the suits we have available to us today.

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Have you tried flaring next to Zaz while he is flaring up high?? This might give you a good reference to go by.
Jason
Naked BASE #15

Yeah, it's surprisingly effective. We missed is once and a flare gave us a second chance... I actually popped back up to him. Probably nothing I'd want to do around the ground, though.
"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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Anyone want to venture a scientifically (mathematically) based estimate as to the surface area it will take to land a person of a given weight safely?



I don't think that wing area (or wingloading) is the whole story.

For example, what's the wingloading of an F-16? It generally lands it's occupant safely.

Is landing a hang glider (relatively low wing loading) safer than landing a 747-400? I haven't seen any statistics on that, but I kind of doubt it.

To put it another way, if you can safely land a VX 46, does that mean you could land an Interceptor 46?

Wingsuits are so much more than wingloading, just as parachutes are.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Anyone want to venture a scientifically (mathematically) based estimate as to the surface area it will take to land a person of a given weight safely?



Wingloading in and of itself isn't the only determining factor.

You'd also need to define your terms when you say "safely".

I maintain that it's simply not possible to land and walk away from it with the current types of wingsuits available.

All we need do is look at recent events to understand that just from a controlability standpoint there are large issues to overcome.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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I don't think that wing area (or wingloading) is the whole story.



By looking up some stats on an F-16 and doing a little math, I concluded the wingloading of the jet is about 68 lb/sqft. Compare to about 7 lb/sqft for us. The jet has the obvious advantage of thrust but it can land without thrust (see http://www.cnn.com/US/9606/29/spectacular.landing/). I think this is amazing. Like you said, wingloading isn’t the whole story but then what is the rest of the story and can it make up for an nine fold difference in wingloading?

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> I concluded the wingloading of the jet is about 68 lb/sqft. Compare
> to about 7 lb/sqft for us. The jet has the obvious advantage of
> thrust but it can land without thrust . . .

Well, right, but it also approaches (engine-out) at 200kts and lands at 100kts (about 120mph.) Landing at that speed in a wingsuit would be unconfortable.

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Yeah but Motorcycle racers get tossed of at >100mph all the time without getting really hurt. I think it would be more difficult to maintain control until impact/landing and then you'd need some sort of abrasive resistant material (leather) to keep your skin on.

*I am sure someone will do it sometime. It has to be done.

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Quick question. Has jari or anyone thought about trying to put "flaps" on a wingsuit? or something similar to the brakes on a square parachute, to create more lift while slowing the operator down?

Yeah, it's called a leg wing. ;)
"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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Jari and Robi I can't speak for but the Skyflyer three has a little wing tip gripper/stiffener that some folks on occasion use differentialy like ailerons but mostly to maintain tension on the bigger area of S3 wing to fly more efficiently. Minor deflections are all it takes.

Now in regards to landing a wingsuit if your plan is to use some kind of long travel device that changes the wings area creating lift and drag radically like flaps on aircraft, they will have to placed inboard and will be harder to reach and activate with your hands. Keep in mind that the physical area skyflyer3s wings are just about a max that most flyers can hold for any given length of time. Out board they will put too much leverage on your hands and any unsymetrical application will cause instability of biblical proportions.
Besides we already have a HI-lift device.... its called a parachute.

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I mean one that can be articulated at will. I am thinking of something to curl the trailing edge of the armwings so they would form a J looking from the side. like this


----------\

You can already do that with the leg wing, and it works (to a degree):
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=700179#700179
"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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Keep in mind that the physical area skyflyer3s wings are just about a max that most flyers can hold for any given length of time. Out board they will put too much leverage on your hands and any unsymetrical application will cause instability of biblical proportions.

I semi-disagree with you here, but just semi-disagree... Yes, as these wings get more surface and a thinner profile, and therefore more efficient, they become more and more difficult to fly both technically and physically. However, I seriously doubt we've hit the limit with the S3.

In 1998, if you gave someone a S3, they'd flail like crazy and feel like their arms were ripped off. But in 2003 we have a number of things that they don't. We have training. We have smaller suits to fly to build of strength and skill. We also have people that got off their asses and started working out specific muscles, specifically for wingsuit flight.

I don't think the suits can physically harm you yet (with the exception of my thumb dislocation due to an improperly positioned swoop handle... but that doesn't really count), and there's a LOT more you can do to them before they actually can. I know that myself and others that found the S3 unstable and extremely exhaustive at first are now flying smoothly and are staying maxed out for over 10,000 feet down, four or five times in a day, before we really get exhausted.

Personally, I'm ready for more. I've put about 130 flights on my S3, and while I'm still finding out lots of fun stuff to do with it, I'm also anxious for the next big (literally) thing. BirdMan continues to work on bigger, more efficient suits (ie, the S4 prototype), I see a technically landable suit and pilots that can fly them, coming up in the future. Though I do love flying my parachute. :)
"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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>like flaps on an aircraft, to create greater lift and tons of drag to slow
>down a man landed suit.

The trailing edges of the S3 can be deflected as Manbird mentioned, but they don't give you the sort of drastic change you'd need to land (although the effect is definitely noticeable.)

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soo......any news on this subject? :P



Well, I haven't landed mine yet. Have you? :D



Landing the suit is easy. Doing so without an inflated parachute may be a bit more difficult, but can also be achieved if:

(a) there is no human in the suit at the time, or
(b) exit is ultra low--like 2 feet.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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