Couple question about Ghostplanes

[JNegator 0]

How common are they, like is it the type of thing that is done rare by a couple people who decide they're ballzy enough to give it a shot or is it a maneuver done by crewdogs?
And in either case is it common place for the person who is left flying the ghostplane to land it or do they kick out of the other guys main after flying them for a little bit.
Is attempting this really as retarded as some people make it out to be?

[faulknerwn 36]

I've seen mixed results. Some completely stable and landable, and others not so much. You definitely need to be flexible in deciding what to do. They're kinda fun actually.. Definitely do the cutaway into the ghost plane up high so that if something does go wrong you have time to deal with it....

[FrancoisH 0]

What is a ghostplane....do you have a picture?

Thanks

[StefB 0]

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/1135/dp.html
Mainsite: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/1135/

EDIT: Not my thing, see http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=38641404 too.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Jacob,

If you do this....please ensure I'm there and can tag along with camera.

Thanks

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[TVPB 0]

Did one out of a 4 way leading to a drop the bomb and ghost plane.

Tips:
- the ghost plane is potentially dangerous for the guy who "flies it. The pilot.
- the key thing is that the pilot is symmetrical at all times.
- he must have a symmetrical hold on the other canopy when the cutaway is performed. I there is lots of tension on one grip and not much on the other, there is a chance that the cutaway canopy hooks one leg and starts winding up. This leg may be locked in very quickly by a wound up canopy. Hence, make sure both grips are locked in properly prior to the other person cutting away. Abort if they are not. And make sure that you have a knife handy in case you need to cut lines to get rid of the other canopy. I would suggest an open blade knife in case you have to cut through a series of wound up lines. Not a zac or jack the ripper, but a switch blade or something (not a machete, you will scare people ). The knife should be capable of cutting through the risers if need be.
- if the pilot intends to release the cut away canopy (landing it can be problematic if you end up with a horizontal body which often happens), he must be able to release both sides at or near enough exactly at the same time. Otherwise the above scenario happens.
- do this all at high altitude. Trying to cut away a wound up canopy at 2000 feet is "cutting" it fine. Pardon the pun.
- one method of preventing the horizontal body and therefore being able to land it is to wind both feet around the front risers twice and then lock you instep into the v of the front / back risers (i.e. the front of the foot on one side and the back on the other). Then push your legs and lower body forward in a sit position. You want to try to get the risers in front of you instead of behind. It's good if the cutaway canopy is on full drive (brakes released and no inbuilt brakes at "full drive") so that is pulls back less during flight. Perhaps even some front riser trim???? However, if you need to release the canopy in this configuration, it is much harder, so think carefully prior to attempting this.

Rule 1: do it with someone experienced.
Rule 2: Good Luck. Stay Safe. Have Fun.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[skypuppy 1]

Is attempting this really as retarded as some people make it out to be?

I hate hearing about people calling something retarded just because they don't know what they're talking about. Like Wendy said ghostplanes can be fun, sometimes they get complicated.

Sometimes it seems more stable if you slide your legs down the risers so the v is around your legs.

Other than that, can't really add anything more to Tom's post, he pretty much covered it all.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[ScoobieDoo 0]

I seen the set of pics and watched the video, the last one shows him leaving the plane sitting and releasing a 3rd canopy losing the freebag in the process if I seen it correctly. My question is how did he connect that 3rd chute to himself? Did he have another harness setup with a cutaway option? any info. would be nice. I'm thinking of doing a ghost plane. maybe a reserve freebag attached to a static line(so I don't lose the bag) with that 3rd chute setup so no reserve ride is done, I was thinking of pulling the REAL main and doing a chute transfer so there's no big jolt or big loss of alt. that way I could film him while he tries to fly it.

[morris 0]

How do I "release" the ghostcanopy prior to landing with the least risk of an entanglement?
Just kick out and hope for the best?
We got two reserves here in need for repacks so we might give it two tries on the weekend.
Any advice very welcome!

[faulknerwn 36]

We just always kicked out - never any issues.

As far as the freebag - we just faced the tail and deployed a second main - dbag and all - as we went...

[ScoobieDoo 0]

second main attached how? deployed how, like have somebody holding it at door as you leave or what? what's the odds of having a bad ghostplane and having to chop the mess v taking it in for landing or close to landing?

[faulknerwn 36]

No clue about the odds. I have several rigs with additional 3 rings set up for intentional cutaways. The 3rd main is attached to the spare rings and I exit in a sitfly And then just toss the pc

[ScoobieDoo 0]

ok, so you have a rig set up for cutaways, does that mean the 3rd chute is in a belly pack or what/where does it go before exit? extra 3 ring setup meaning 2 sets of 3 rings on your harness? Is this something any rigger has seen or made? makes sense to do this a safe as possible thats why the questions, why use your only reserve when you can have a 3rd chute, leaving you with the reserve just in case. any hint/help point me in the right hands for this setup would be great.

[faulknerwn 36]

Jumpshack set up some of my Racers for tertiary systems. Its a complete other set of rings. I attach a cutaway handle to my chest strap.

I pack the 1st canopy deployed in a regular dbag with a regular pilot chute, exit "sit-flying" facing the tail and as soon as I'm clear of the plane toss the pc...

[morris 0]

So yesterday we gave it two tries but none of those worked as intended.
First some information about the canopies used.
We´ve been flying a Parachute de France Springo 140 loaded 1.7 and a Sabre 120 (1) loaded about 1.5-1.6 (don´t know the exact loading for this one).
It might be important to mention that the Springo has a flatter trim than the Sabre. If we are placing the canopies exactly on level in front of each other (in "preparation" of a downplane for example) this isn´t working at all if the flatter trimed canopy is in the back (the canopy will not just behave "like crazy" but even collapse), if the Springo is in the front it flies very stable...
In a regular plane it flies smooth not matter which canopy is in the back.
1.
On the first attempt I was flying the Springo in the front and we thought I might be a good idea if I would hold on to the center A-lines of the ghost to stay in a more upright bodyposition. After cutting away however this proved to be a bad idea as I kept holding on to the A-lines and by doing so pulled down the center of the nose of the ghostcanopy. (Thinking about it we could have figured this out before.) This resulted in a very(!) wild and bumpy ride and after just a couple of seconds the configuration started to add a serious amount of turn to my excitement (by that time I was already excited enough!) and I did let go off the ghost.
2.
On the second attempt we didn´t want to hold on to the A-lines again. Prior to cut-away the pilot of the front canopy was in full flight, no brake input at all, not even the hands on the toggles if I remember correctly, bodypostion neither upright nor horizontal, more or less a "regular" plane (from the point of view of a "nonexpert").
On cutaway the ghost canopy was popping up with very much power! - enough power to send the frontguy into a frontloop through his own lines(!), getting entangled/catching two of the lines with his left foot (left center A and the next front line to the left). His canopy didn´t like this at all and looked pretty bad (pics might be coming soon as we had outside) but fortunatly he was able to clear the lines very fast...

Now we need additional advise.
Is the choice of canopies wrong?
But shouldn´t it be possible with any kind of chute?
Would be the right way to do it to hold on to the A-lines by the time of the cut-away and to let go of the A-line the second after?
Should the guy who is not cutting away give some brake input? If yes, how much? And just during the cut-away or also later on during the flight?

[faulknerwn 36]

Wow - it never occurred to me someone would try to do a ghostplane with 9-cells - much less highly loaded 9-cells! You'll find everything works far better if you get some lightly loaded 7-cells..

As far as the canopy going crazy - I'll bet money it has nothing to do with the trim of the canopy. The 140 almost certainly has longer lines than the 120. So when the 120 is on top/in front - and you're all the way down - its blocking the air from the front of the other canopy which is why it acts crazy. Any other configuration of the 2 both canopies are still getting air into the nose and its fine.

Generally when doing ghostplanes/downplanes and other things like that, life is a lot easier if you put the bigger canopy on top.

I would be trying brake input on the guy flying. Probably most of the flight. It'll help you match descent rate.

If you think about it though too - you had a much more highly wing-loaded canopy in the front, and then chopped the lighter one. That's going to really contribute to the front canopy wanting to dive and the back one float.

[morris 0]

Thanks for your fast answer!
A few weeks ago we´ve been demoing bigger Storms and loved ´em - but at the moment those canopies are all we got (all our other toys are even way higher loaded).

What you are saying about line length makes sense to me, I knew that the problem was caused by not getting air into the nose, I just thought this might be caused by the trim, not the linelength, but you are right for sure.

You are saying that it´s easier with the bigger canopy on top.
The bigger canopy or the lighter loaded one??
In our configuration the bigger canopy is higher loaded!

On the first attempt we had the bigger AND higher loaded canopy on top, on the second attempt we had the smaller and lighter loaded canopy on top.

We´ll fly it braked next time!
If the front canopy has a lower rate of descent the tendency of the ghost wanting to pop up should be less, right?
How much brake input recommended on cut-away?
1/4? 1/2? 3/4?

[faulknerwn 36]

Yeah the bigger canopy is usually on top just purely because of line length issues..

Yes - if the front canopy is floatier it should make it easier. I would start with quarter brakes and deepen it from there depending on how it feels. The more brakes you add I would think the rebound effect would be less...

And certainly you'll have more control in brakes than full flight...

(No one has a bigger canopy you can borrow? )

[dragon2 0]

Doing CRW with a Springo? You're crazy.

Really. Those canopies do not handle turbulence at all well, are prone to collapsing, can't handle rear riser input (flattening of the trim) very well either. Wrong wrong choice all round.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[morris 0]

Till we get Storms we´ll be trying to compensate for the wrong choice by superior piloting!

[VectorBoy 0]

Off topic, Our team got ghost 107 and practiced for the first time together with them and they were pretty nifty. Not bad for the first time on a new canopy. Next year will be sweet.