does anyone carry a tertiary reserve for CRW?

[ruthers 0]

Do any CRW jumpers use tertiary reserves these days, and if so, what sort of container and reserve?

[dragon2 0]

A few (2?) here still do, but since they can cause as many problems as they can solve, ...

They jump a flattish pouch sorta like a flag pouch attached with D-rings to their rigs. The pouch holds a real terts,not a true reserve as those are way too big.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[topdocker 0]

We had a teammate who wore one for years, and only used it once. We argued for years weather it was an appropriate use or not and never resolved the issue.

Terts require inspection every so often, as this teammate found out and was unable to cut it away and use a regular reserve. Ended up landing flat on back out in the dessert. Ugly.

I found it to be a great pillow between loads, but thought it was a great place to hang canopies and lines on in the air.

Jmtcw

Jump more, post less!

[rehmwa 2]

Sounds like a snag factor when the question is asked of CrW people. I'm surprised to hear there are people that would consider it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[dragon2 0]

Well there HAVE been people saved by it in the past, if you're one of them I can understand wanting to have one more. I think there's only 2 people in The Netherlands who I ever saw jump a terts, and at least one doesn't do any crw anymore i think. But even people who having been saved by a terts won't always jump one so I guess you're right.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[ruthers 0]

Thanks for the replies. There are some super compact paraglider reserve parachutes available these days which are possilbe to make with modern materials at about 1.5kg and very compact.

I'm just getting into CRW and read about the accident on the 100 way and though that another chance might be nice to have in case of an unfixable wrap or a main-reserve entanglement.

[rehmwa 2]

I understand the Pros - another chance

but I think the Cons are much more likely - another snag point


each person needs to decide for themselves, but I'd actually be nervous with someone who has a big giant snag point on their belly

I also wouldn't do CrW with someone with boots that have hooks instead of eyelets for lacing up, etc

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andy9o8 0]

I'm glad to see this thread, since this very issue (tert reserve for CRW) has interested me ever since I got recurrent a few years back. Here's why: Whuffos, who don't realize that it's usually jumper error, and not mere "gear failure", that causes most fatalities, often ask us why we don't wear 3 canopies instead of 2, to give us that 3rd chance. Now we know that it's not simply because reserves are very (albeit not perfectly) reliable; it's because the statistical occurrence of main malfunctions, as well as double-malfunctions, is sufficiently low that having only 1 reserve is considered an acceptable risk. (I know, there's also the fact that a tert system would tend to be more complex.)

But hard-core CReW dogs generally tend to have a greater "statistical occurrence" of cutaways than non-CRW jumpers, right? And reserves aren't perfect, they do occasionally malfunction, plus there's the added factor of main-reserve entanglements.

So when do the statistics start to skew in favor of a tert? And couldn't a talented gear innovator design an acceptably low-snag tert container that would be safe for CRW? In particular, I'd appreciate the opinons of experienced CRW jumpers and riggers on this. Thanks.

[topdocker 0]

I think the real reason hard-core crw dogs don't wear terts for reserve malfunctions comes down to reality. There is no way to easily remove your malfunctioning reserve if you needed.

The scenario being: in a wrap with someone and you cut away, open up a crappy reserve that mals. Now you have to get out a hook knife and hack your reserve risers, or dump your tert into the mal. Question easily answered after you drop your hook knife.

The real danger in crw is not enough canopies or altitude to cut away, but clearing anything that is on you, before it gets fouled on your reserve handle or three rings, or you pound in. Being able to easily remove crap and get clear is the safest thing you can do.

Certainly a tert can buy you more time to deal with things, but most feel it is not worth the extra effort, danger, decision tree branches. More easy to be careful, stop at appropriate altitudes, and jump compatible gear.

Craig

Jump more, post less!

[DougH 270]

Quote

I think the real reason hard-core crw dogs don't wear terts for reserve malfunctions comes down to reality. There is no way to easily remove your malfunctioning reserve if you needed.

Why do you need to remove the mal'd reserve?

Correct me if I am wrong but paraglider reserves don't involve a cutaway of the wing, the reserve just adds extra drag to save your ass.

Don't tertiaries function in the same manner, extra drag for your worst case scenario?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[mrobiette 0]

The tertiarys I've heard about are generally a round on a long single bridle attachment - the idea being that if you are wrapped up and can't get clear you find a hole and chuck it through hoping it will find some clear air to inflate and lower you and the mess to a survivable (if not pleasant) landing. I think this might be similar to paragliders, but don't know for sure never having done paragliding.

The ones I've seen have been packed in a fairly flat front mount, but whatever you have its going to add an extra snag point so its a judgement call.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Quote

I think the real reason hard-core crw dogs don't wear terts for reserve malfunctions comes down to reality. There is no way to easily remove your malfunctioning reserve if you needed.

Why do you need to remove the mal'd reserve?

Correct me if I am wrong but paraglider reserves don't involve a cutaway of the wing, the reserve just adds extra drag to save your ass.

Don't tertiaries function in the same manner, extra drag for your worst case scenario?

Exactly. There would be no cutaway of the reserve. I'm talking about a tert that has no pilot chute - yes, like a paraglider reserve, or the reserves that are worn by paratroopers - they are hand-deployed - you scoop the canopy out of the container and then throw it down (and into the direction of any spin).

So I ask again (particularly to experinced CRW dogs & riggers):
- when do the statistical odds of a main cutaway, and/or a double mal, militate in favor of wearing a tert? and..
- can't a practical (i.e., not too complex) and relatively snag-free tert system be developed?

[ruthers 0]

Apologies in advance if people think this belongs in the safety forum, but it's relevant to the discussion of the thread, and the reason why I asked the question in the first place:

Regarding paragliding reserves and nasty landings, in the paragliding season 2006-2007 in Australia (ie. northern hemisphere winter) we had the world championships here, and with 150 or so pilots thermalling under the same cloud, there were numerous mid-airs (i.e. wraps). With that, and other incidents, we had about 12 reserve throws for the season in the country, all non-cutaway pulled-apex round canopies. Of those, one injury - a pilot landed under the reserve at the top of a 12 ft high road embankment and tumbled down, breaking her shoulder. Last year we had one injury under reserve - a compressed vertebrae, not sure how many throws there were, maybe 8 or so?

So it has historically been about 10% injury rate under the rounds.

For a worst-case (double mal) contingency, I think that's a worthwhile save rate.

As far as snag points, I think that it should be possible to design a snag-free system, although an option I'm thinking of would make donning and doffing the rig a little more cumbersome.

Cheers and thanks for the input everyone.

[Andy9o8 0]

Hi there! I'm so glad you're OK from your incident at Lodi.

Do you mind if we continue the discussion we had in this thread in 2008? Have your thoughts on tert reserves for CRW (or anyone) evolved at all since then? Look forward to your thoughts.

[topdocker 0]

Quote

Hi there! I'm so glad you're OK from your incident at Lodi.

Do you mind if we continue the discussion we had in this thread in 2008? Have your thoughts on tert reserves for CRW (or anyone) evolved at all since then? Look forward to your thoughts.

Way to bring up ancient history!

In the last few years, I have been involved in a few incidents in CRW.

I still don't think I would not wear one, even for this jump. First, it's another system you have to put on, make sure the flag/lanyard doesn't interfere with, its one more thing flopping around your CG when you are spinning, a tert could prevent a canopy from easily sliding of a jumper by being a snag point, and with small canopies I would worry about tossing it out one way and coming back around to it from the other side before it had time to inflate. Also, I have seen someone land a tertiary; she landed flat on her back in the dessert with no steering. It hurt me and I was in the hanger!

Well fitting rigs, not loosening your chest strap until after the CRW is over, staying current with CRW, and well maintained three rings those would be my priorities.

But it is a personal decision. I still think the added risks/costs outweigh the added benefit.

top

Jump more, post less!

[gregpso 1]

Quote

Do any CRW jumpers use tertiary reserves these days, and if so, what sort of container and reserve?

there is a new project for Bill Booth a third canopy.

If there is a main/reserve entanglement some how being able to get out a 2 foot round canopy whilst avoiding the mess. Plenty have gone in after a main reserve entanglement high up. I got down safely (although hard) with a 20 foot flat round canopy many moons ago.

Bill are you there son ??

I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ??

[chuteshack 4]

why Bill Booth? there are other people in the industry just as competent

[chuteshack 4]

try secondchantz.com