Angles/Tracing- Getting started?

[Doug_Davis 0]

So after researching some of the different disciplines as a newbie and what I want to concentrate on in addition to just getting more proficient as a belly flier and as a canopy pilot in general I really like what I see with Angle flying or Tracing as they call it.

Sebastian is doing a beginner camp in Feb but Im already signed up with Maxine with the PD/Flight 1 team to work on more canopy piloting stuff.

Anyone else coaching or running schools on angle flying? Anyone else going to be running camps through the summer or courses that you guys know of?

[DeeBeeGee 0]

There's a lot of useful information from Bryan Burke in the two articles he wrote last year. in essence a beginner angle/tracing camp is not for beginner skydivers. by all means you can start working towards it by improving your tracking, get some focused one-on-one coaching etc.
you really need to be flying headdown pretty slick and be comfortable with complex breakoff routines before considering tracing.

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/General_Safety/Implications_of_Recent_Tracking_Tracing_and_Wingsuit_Incidents_938.html
http://www.dropzone.com/safety/General_Safety/The_Horizontal_Flight_Problem_935.html

[shropshire 0]

Link :Atmonauti

and

Link 2

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Doug_Davis 0]

DeeBeeGee

you really need to be flying headdown pretty slick and be comfortable with complex breakoff routines before considering tracing.

So I should have already gotten a pretty good base in freeflying with head down before doing angle?

Seems counter-intuitive as I thought tracking, even if its steeper tracking, is easier than straight head down flying. Is that not true?

Not to be dismissive but isnt it just upping the complexity on a swoop and dock which you learn for your A's? Just adding a longer steeper swoop?

The article Shropshire linked makes it seem fairly easy to get started in solo, as I assumed it would be, and doesnt make mention of needing to be a head down flier first. But was hoping maybe someone was running a formal class as they do for canopy piloting.

Edited to add: The article you linked to from Bryan Burke at Skydive AZ was fairly scary. Someone doing a ten way tracing dive on their first EVER tracing dive? And the video he attached was in scarier, one guy couldnt maintain control in belly to earth position.
This is why Im looking for formalized instruction because quite frankly I dont want to end up on a load with idiots like that.

shropshire

Link 2

This reinforces my thoughts on getting started. I wonder if the author runs any classes though. Guess I could email him.
Edited to add: Maybe the author of that article is right. Start solo and just experimenting is the best way, no class needed. A solo jump definitely lessons the possibility of their being a collision with someone who isnt maintaining situational awareness.

Anyone else know of any?

[DeeBeeGee 0]

Doug_Davis

So I should have already gotten a pretty good base in freeflying with head down before doing angle?

tracing and tracking are distinct or at least variations of the same discipline. in my dictionary, anyway, tracing involves going right through the vertical and you need solid headdown skills to do that safely.
even in a steep track the amount of power generated and potential for speed differential are staggering.
on your own with good navigation you'll be fine but not that much fun, with a coach would be better as you'll get some feedback and learn something.
it really isn't much like a swoop and dock but if it was and that was 1 out of a scale of 10 then angle tracking would be about 11 and tracing 100
you can take my advice for what you paid for it but when bryan burke says that most people with less than 500 jumps underestimate the complexity and you have less experience than that and think it's simple well...

ETA: tracking is bloody awesome though, don't let me put you off working towards it, i've just been on too many boogie tracking jumps with people (once myself!) without any appreciation of the implications of flying as fast as they can without the ability to control their speed

[Doug_Davis 0]

DeeBeeGee

when bryan burke says that most people with less than 500 jumps underestimate the complexity and you have less experience than that and think it's simple well...

ETA: tracking is bloody awesome though, don't let me put you off working towards it, i've just been on too many boogie tracking jumps with people (once myself!) without any appreciation of the implications of flying as fast as they can without the ability to control their speed

Bryan's main concern seemed to be firstly people who had X number of jumps (500 for example) yet who had never done a flock track dive in their life jumping into a 10 or 15 way group jump because somehow having 500 jumps on their belly translates to knowing fuck all about tracing, and/or secondly people who dont take the time to learn to spot, talk to the DZSO or pilot about wind's aloft and the direction of flight and then try and do a long tracking/tracing jump. Quite frankly Im not that stupid to do either.
I teach whitewater kayaking professionally and understanding mitigating risk. I know what I dont know, which is why Im looking for professional, paid, experienced, organized instruction in the discipline. Just like I do with canopy piloting.

I know Im a newbie, but Im also smart enough to know what I dont know. Which is again why Im looking for an instructor.

I have had other people who said, as you have, that I should learn free flying head down first, before learning angle flying. But I have others who have said, no learn to track really well, then track with one other person, then learn to track steeper, and then next thing you know you are angle flying.
I like the second route, tracking into angle.

Now if I could just find someone running a course like they do for freeflying, belly RW or canopy piloting.

[hillson 0]

They run angle camps at Sebastian every once and a while with some pretty shit-hot fliers coaching. That being said the experience level is generally significantly greater than yours, currently.

At a minimum you could give them a ring and see what general experience they're looking for, participants have etc. might give you a jumping off point to build your skill base.

[Doug_Davis 0]

hillson

They run angle camps at Sebastian every once and a while with some pretty shit-hot fliers coaching. That being said the experience level is generally significantly greater than yours, currently.

At a minimum you could give them a ring and see what general experience they're looking for, participants have etc. might give you a jumping off point to build your skill base.

I already did. Its more for people who have a skill level already to start jumping flocks of 4 or more.
So Im looking for more of a starting program like Flight 1 does with canopy piloting or Elsinore does with their wingsuit school.

Like I said if worse comes to worse I can just start jumping solo tracking dives, learn to carve, and then just continue to increase the downward angle while remaining stable...all while gaining experience.

But figured I'd ask around to see if anyone ran a course on this first.

[Tinley 0]

Quote

Like I said if worse comes to worse I can just start jumping solo tracking dives, learn to carve, and then just continue to increase the downward angle while remaining stable...all while gaining experience.

This sounds a lot easier than it is. Besides, what experience will you gain doing solos? How will you know that you are experiencing the correct speed, angle, body position, route...plus, solos are boring.

You should be a pretty efficient tracker before you start carving all over the place. This is where freeflying comes into play. Having experience with high speeds and carving in a vertical orientation translate easier when learning to carve at a steep angle, whether on your belly or back.

I'm not aware of a "starting program" per say. Learn to track like a boss on normal tracking dives, without the speed and without the carving. After a bunch of those you should be skilled enough to flock with people at those beginner camps...

If you really want to learn aggressive flying, go travel Europe over the summer and get 1 on 1 coaching. Those guys can go seriously fast.

[GoHuskers 0]

Tracking and freeflying are different but get lumped together by speed type, but people think tracking is easy so they throw together last load 12 ways and open it up to anyone in the packing room, but don't give a detailed brief on changing angle/speed, put the newer jumpers in the back so the experienced flyers can track out of danger if necessary, give a breakoff brief and line of flight brief then throw it out the door. Tracking and angle flying have a lot in common so they have to be kind of the same, but they're both like freeflying because they're both fast but its like delta tracking kind of so belly fliers can do it too, but its different because you have to be able to fly headdown to be a good angle flier but angle flying is like tracking which is like delta tracking so anyone can do it....

Tracking dives definitely have a lot of circular logic surrounding them.

[Doug_Davis 0]

Tinley

Learn to track like a boss on normal tracking dives, without the speed and without the carving. After a bunch of those you should be skilled enough to flock with people at those beginner camps...

Wait. What?
How would I be safe to track with others in a group if I dont even know how to carve which is used to turn and control your heading/orientation? Carving i.e. dipping your shoulders to turn in one direction or another is how you turn in a track yes?

Maybe Im not understanding what it is you are saying but that doesnt come across as particularly safe.

[Tinley 0]

I have never attended a beginners camp, but I have seen some video during one, and it appeared they were working more towards achieving the correct angle with the addition of speed.

From my observations and moderate experience, usually carving is one of the last maneuvers to work on. Especially in freeflying. Carving uses all 3 processes at once: drive, rotation about your axis, and fall rate. You have to be solid is all 3 of those to perform a good carve.

When I say learn to track like a boss, I'm talking about the ability to perform very well on simple, relatively flat, group tracking dives. This would put you in a good spot before you attend a camp, where they would most likely build your angle and speed skills. These skills should come easier to you because you have been practicing and performing well during regular tracking dives. Additional camps would add in more dynamic flying.

Also, in no way am I a professional. I'm just a guy who likes to skydive and feels like having a discussion about angle flying.

[Doug_Davis 0]

Gotcha.

Well for me I would feel really unsafe in such a group dive, which is why I think Bryan Burke is putting his foot down at his DZ. If no one has a good grasp as to how to carve, or how to keep from carving (ie running into their fellow jumpers), then they shouldnt be jumping in a flock. Put a bunch of newbies together in a flock who dont know how to turn or control turns seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

I am curious, you arent the first to mention this:
"When I say learn to track like a boss, I'm talking about the ability to perform very well on simple, relatively flat, group tracking dives."
For me that was part of my A license curriculum. Isnt it for everyone? I had to bust across the sky, while not looking like a humping porpoise (potato chipping as some people call it), on heading and in control.
If its part of the A's I assumed every instructor was holding their students to the same standards?

[excaza 1]

Doug_Davis

For me that was part of my A license curriculum. Isnt it for everyone? I had to bust across the sky, while not looking like a humping porpoise (potato chipping as some people call it), on heading and in control.
If its part of the A's I assumed every instructor was holding their students to the same standards?

If you're asking this question, I think you should re-read both of Bryan Burke's articles. To start off:

Quote

It is perceived as something anyone off student status can do, since there is no need for enough skill to dock on a formation or turn points. In fact, some tracking dives are put together with the clear expectation that some participants won’t even be able to keep up. Since tracking itself is perceived as easy, I believe this translates into a mind-set that there is nothing to worry about. Hence we see very poorly organized dives with little or no screening for ability or experience, and often no meaningful flight planning.

and:

Quote

Almost all of the incidents involve some degree of inexperience. Just how much experience is required to participate in this type of jump is relative. For example, is 300 jumps enough to be on a 12-way tracking dive? Is 250 enough to be on a 17-way wingsuit dive? Is 180 enough to be on a 10-way tracking dive, with no previous tracking experience? Is 700 jumps over six years (117/year average) enough to be on an 18-way tracking dive? Is 325 jumps in two years enough to be on a 12-way tracking dive?

If your jump numbers are low (say, below 500 jumps) you may have answered “yes.” The correct answer is “no.”

What does that mean for 37 jumps?

[Doug_Davis 0]

excaza

What does that mean for 37 jumps?

Burke was discussing flocking dives. ie tracking dives with multiple jumpers in almost every case. Other than a handful of solo jumpers who couldnt figure out how to spot or talk to the DZSO about winds aloft.

Tinley and I were discussing me jumping and learning solo. Before ever doing a dive with someone else.

Thats the key difference.

Doesnt matter though. Got hold of an angle guy out of NY, Cipollone, who gave me the name of some good coaches down in Florida to hook up with and start working with. So the thread served its purpose.

[Joellercoaster 6]

Yeah - I think most people were just worried that you were missing the point (it's more involved than it looks, get a coach), when you were not. Two ways with a good flyer are a really good way to learn to track, flat or angled.

The only thing I would add is that at least over here, 'tracing' and 'tracking' are closely related and overlapping, but not the same thing. The latter implies a lot of speed and power, and radical changes of direction - as DeeBeeGee says upthread, at various points in the dive it will be more of a form of head down, as the turns carve right through the vertical.

Way cool.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[LyraM45 0]

I think you've got tracking and angle flying and/or tracing all mixed up. Like others have said, I would lump it closer to head down with a little bit of tracking thrown in instead of thinking of it as tracking with a little bit of head down thrown in. And in terms of the carving that you are talking about, I think you've got that mixed up a little too. Carving is definitely not a flat move left or right like you would do on a track. It's more like head down carving, which is totally different. This is not stuff you just want to go up and try by yourself at 30 jumps. You'll be all over the sky and up and down jump run before you know it!

I know this is something you want to get in to, but there is a reason there are not angle flying camps for people with 30 jumps. And even more so if you can't even find somebody worth their salt to give one on one angle/tracing coaching to somebody with those jump numbers. You're just not there yet, and rightfully so, you shouldn't be. And I'm right there with you-- I'm definitely not even close to being ready for that kind of stuff yet! It really does pay to get good foundations in all the flying you should be concentrating on after you get your A license. Go do some belly jumps, tip toe into freeflying, hit the tunnel if you can, do some tracking dives (yes, true tracking is much different than what you think you know and mastered just on your AFF jumps-- start small since they can get fast and zoo like, especially with a bunch people fresh off of A license...which I guess in that case won't be fast, but definitely zoo like ) and definitely for sure do that canopy course. Stuff like fast freefly big ways, super big way belly jumps, small canopies, fast tracing/angle flying, and wingsuits will be there when the time is right. Lots of fun to be had still while getting to that point, though!

I'm not expert on the subject. Just my .02 on all of that.... but then again, I'm like a conservative granny sometimes.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[Benga 0]

Dude, if Sebastian's your spot, you want to hook up with Luis Prinetto, you can't find a better coach. Solos are mostly useless because you have zero reference or proximity. I've had plenty of people tell me how well they were doing with their solos and then I do a two way with them and they have no idea what they are doing. You want to start with two ways with a coach and work your way up from there slowly respecting your skill level along the way.

Angle flying is just that, flying an angle, ranging from super flat to super steep. You don't need 500 jumps or to be proficient on your head to start angle flying, but that said you do need to respect your level. Shallow angle jumps are a lot of fun and you don't need to be an expert to do them safely, but you do need to make sure you have a very qualified leader who understands your skill level.