skreamer 1 #101 October 23, 2009 QuoteBelly fliers come from all over to nationals. I even hear that there are some good belly fliers at Eloy. Your argument is not convincing. That is right because belly flyers also competed in FS at the nationals for the first time last year, your choice of comparison is not convincing. VFS is a new discipline, it is in its infancy. Right now that infant gets its nappies changed at Eloy. Who knows, once it grows a bit more it might decide to call somewhere in Europe home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #102 October 23, 2009 QuoteVFS is a new discipline, it is in its infancy. I agree with that point but don't think it helps the FF presence at Nats at all to have something cater to one DZ. But I think Kallend's second point is a good one. Have something a little easier than VRW that is directly scored be in place. Freeflying has really difficult (VRW) and subjectively scored (FF and Freestyle) scored disciplines. Something simple like a speed star event would open it up to intermediate flyers to encourage them to advance to the next level. It's perfectly parallel to what RW went through and would bring in more pickup teams and people a bit more Type A. I'd definitely do a FF speed event (4-5 way) in addition to RW 4 and 8 way next year if there was one. I'm not interested in the camera events and VRW is just too hard for me to waste the entry fee. I think VRW will achieve the same level of competition participation - but it needs a stepping stone or two. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdub 0 #103 October 23, 2009 I wonder if counted how many freeflyers (artistic)competed at US nationals each year from 1995-2005 (prior to VFS) how that would compare to how many freeflyers (artistic & vfs) competed at nationals from 2006-2009. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyzbar 0 #104 October 23, 2009 Simon, Some of us r just Broke, the economy is beating the hell out of us. To go compete, not just be there but really compete is well beyond the budget that most can afford. I know Carolina Kaboom was well into 5 digits before they got to Nationals, I do not know very few that foot that bill.. The way it is man.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #105 October 23, 2009 I can't think of anything in Freeflying that would fit that description. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #106 October 25, 2009 Quote I can't think of anything in Freeflying that would fit that description. But Robert your not as ignorant as some posters around hereNothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,930 #107 October 25, 2009 QuoteI can't think of anything in Freeflying that would fit that description. THAT is my point.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,930 #108 October 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteBelly fliers come from all over to nationals. I even hear that there are some good belly fliers at Eloy. Your argument is not convincing. That is right because belly flyers also competed in FS at the nationals for the first time last year, your choice of comparison is not convincing. VFS is a new discipline, it is in its infancy. Right now that infant gets its nappies changed at Eloy. Who knows, once it grows a bit more it might decide to call somewhere in Europe home. And FF is not new at all - how many FF teams competed this year? The belly fliers came, and the freefliers (FF or VFS) stayed home.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,930 #109 October 25, 2009 QuoteSimon, Some of us r just Broke, the economy is beating the hell out of us. To go compete, not just be there but really compete is well beyond the budget that most can afford. I know Carolina Kaboom was well into 5 digits before they got to Nationals, I do not know very few that foot that bill.. The way it is man.. The economy applies to FS as well as FF. 57 FS 4-way teams competed.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #110 October 25, 2009 QuoteThe belly fliers came, and the freefliers (FF or VFS) stayed home. A very small part of it is there were several who were competing in the FS events and would have competed in the VFS events if the weather had been better. Due to the bad weather, the schedule was compressed. There was no realistic way to compete in 8way FS and 4way VFS since we had 40 minute calls for 8way FS. If I was doing 4way VFS at the same time, I would have had to do 1 round of 8way FS, back up that load with 1 round of 4way VFS and then have 20 minutes to prep the next round of each. The scheduling of 8way FS and 4way VFS right on top of each other prevented at least 2 4way VFS teams from competing and prevents a few of us from being able to commit to training both teams. This only affects a few people.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilot-one 0 #111 October 26, 2009 QuoteThe economy applies to FS as well as FF. 57 FS 4-way teams competed. This isn't exactly comparing apples to apples. Free flying takes a substantially higher investment to learn than belly flying. I know of at least a couple of belly flyers at nationals this year with under 200 jumps. I'll bet there's not a single free flyer with under 1000 that's really competitive. Furthermore, from my perspective anyway, it seems most really good free flyers are professional skydivers and most belly flyers it seems have other jobs that most likely pay substantially more. Just my 2 cents worth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FFlyer 0 #112 October 26, 2009 The problem I think is that it takes huge skill to even do the most basic of VFS jumps (and normal freefly), whereas to do a 4way belly jump,...well you can do that with 100 jumps. That's not to say 4way belly doesn't require skill to get good at, because it certainly does. But for example to be able to score 10 points on a VFS 4 way jump requires far more skill than to be able to turn 10 points on a belly 4way jump. So the problem I see is that a lot of freeflyers (and belly flyers) would love to take part in VFS4way but simply dont have the skill yet. What I think would help is to have a 2way VFS competition format that has no artistic element to it. So instead of having your normal 2 speed rounds and 5 artistic rounds, you instead have all 7 being speed rounds. I think that would appeal to a lot of freeflyers who are aiming to one day do VFS4way and who like being scored more objectivly than the current artistic format. Having a 2way purely speed freefly competition would also be a great stepping stone towards VFS4way in my opinion. I think there's still a definite place for the artistic side and that shouldn't be completly lost, but I think there are a lot of people out there who have a competition 4way belly mind set who would like to compete in freefly,...but who dont like the artistic and very subjective judging criterea. So getting to the point, I dont think freeflying is dying off, I just think that it takes a lot longer to get good at than what belly does, esspecially with VFS4way which so many people would love to do but who just dont have the skill yet. I think a purely speed based 2way VFS competition with no artistic component would go a long way both in getting more skydivers involved in competitive freeflying as well as being a stepping stone to VFS4way. Well that's what I think anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #113 October 26, 2009 I'm very interested in becoming a good freeflyer as time progresses. Many know me in person as a bellyflyer... I can't help but to observe that tunnels have been 'sorta' amplifying belly-flying around here. Almost everybody, even with half a brain, can enter a tunnel and bellyfly on their first try. Freefly in a tunnel takes lots of time and money. I have been witnessing experienced skydivers (100-200 jump league) be introduced to their first 3-way and 4-ways after only 15-30 minutes of tunnel time. Larger tunnels like the 14-foot Skyventure Montreal, very forgiving to novices and make it pretty easy for novices to rapidly graduate from tunnel familiarization into bellyfly RW in the tunnel. During a tunnel camp earlier this year, someone had only 15 minutes of tunnel time, and expected to only do 2-ways and then maybe a 3-way. But by the end of the day, he was in our 4-ways and holding his own, rapidly catching up to the 300 and 400 jump people in the same formation. As a result you can bellyfly for only 3 dollars per minute (4-ways split by 4 people sharing cost) with a fairly low bar before you're allowed to fly with others in the tunnel. Tunnels have, kinda, been amplifying RW around here a little bit lately. They definitely amplify freefly too, but not nearly as much due to extra time and money commitments... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #114 October 26, 2009 Quotehave all 7 being speed rounds..... aiming to one day do VFS4way and who like being scored more objectivly than the current artistic format. Having a 2way purely speed freefly competition would also be a great stepping stone towards VFS4way in my opinion. ........ there are a lot of people out there who have a competition 4way belly mind set who would like to compete in freefly,...but who dont like the artistic and very subjective judging criterea.... for intermediate level of skills and getting people into the sport - yours was a perfect post IMO ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
body_pilot 0 #115 October 27, 2009 Just to clear something up. VFS is NOT freeflying! Freeflying is an artistic event. VFS is Vertical formation Skydiving. Same as 4-way fs but done vertically. They are two very different events. Freeflying at US Nationals is obviously declining in participation. I don't think (hope) it does not die. As a VFS competitor, I can tell you there was much frustration and disappointment, in the turnout for VFS open. I think most of the post here raise great points and are correct in their conclusions. VFS an already "difficult" discipline had blocks and random's added to the dive pool last year that slowed the draw down and changed the easiest random "D" (head down star) and made it the most difficult random (sit line). I am glad points were added so that we now have a 8 round meet, but I think the people making the decisions on new formations should be the ones that are actually flying the formations and participating in the sport. After the event was complete at Nationals we (SDC Standard XP) sat down with the enemy :) AZ Arsenal to discuss what WE can do to help intermediate teams move up to Open, and help people interested in VFS, to learn how to get started in VFS. We have some ideas in promoting more participation in VFS, such as skills camps, and Vertical flying events. Standard will be hosting skills camps and events to promote VFS and educate skydivers wanting to participate in VFS. Skydive Chicago now has an intermediate team that will train next year and we are hoping to encourage more. If you are at a dropzone that has a full time team such as SDC or SDAZ, and you are interested in VFS. Please feel free to ask questions, watch debriefs, go to skills camps. When broken down, VFS is not as difficult as some may think. Set realistic goals and get coaching when possible. I know that at SDC you can, at the very least, get started on learning and help with VFS from Standard for just being there. Nationals is at SDC next year and we are counting on a much better turn out for 4-way VFS. If you are interested in competing contact someone from Arsenal or Standard and begin your quest for competing in VFS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #116 October 27, 2009 QuoteVFS is NOT freeflying! Freeflying is an artistic event. I think the desire to differentiate VFS from the artistic connotations of the word Freeflying (capital F) is probably a good semantics exercise to pursue. Though it is a bit confusing when most people treat the word freeflying (lower case F) as a generic term for anything that includes an extended resume of flying orientations beyond belly, back and knee flying (i.e., all those plus HD and upright flying - thus including Freefly, Freestyle, and VFS as subcategories of freeflying). good luck, normally I'm not a fan of being specific about labeling, but in this case it supports the goal of the post. I'd rather divide by artistic vs objective scoring disciplines instead by which axis we spend our time on - it's a much better way to group and describe the competition and the competitors RW and VRW have more in common Freestyle and Freefly have more in common So it makes more sense to not overlap VFS with RW events as the potential for teams competing in both might be more likely than crossing RW with artistic events which could more easily be run in parallel....... edit: as far as you guys and Arsenal and others working actively to support new teams..... THANKS, I wish I could travel to your area more just to soak up that offer, I can't wait to be able to go to Nats and do both 4-way VRW and RW in the same year ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EXTremeWade 0 #117 October 30, 2009 So the simple answer seems to be that Freeflying is not dead but maybe dying off some. Who cares. Hey, the economy is still a bit fragile and like the OP stated $24 bucks a jump can be tough. For freeflying we have all seen ups and downs since committing to this discipline, but it is not dead. Everyone that has ever wanted to do well in freeflying tried hard to get there. Stop throwing all that money and excuses out there. Lock this thread sometime soon, and save us all pleases Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #118 October 30, 2009 Yeah. I agree. This thread is gay (in the happy sense). Someone please lock it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #119 October 30, 2009 I don't see any reason to lock this thread. It may motivate people to put together a team, either Freefly or VFS and compete at Nationals. I for one would love to see more teams at Nationals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaylorC 0 #120 October 30, 2009 QuoteI don't see any reason to lock this thread. It may motivate people to put together a team, either Freefly or VFS and compete at Nationals. I for one would love to see more teams at Nationals. lots of us who are on teams cant afford to travel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #121 November 3, 2009 Lack of new blood going into it. I see it at the DZs all the time. New jumper comes in, gets off AFF, gets addicted. 6 years ago they would've gone into FF. It was the cool thing to do. Hell, I used to sit at work watching videos of it. Was wicked sick seeing the stuff coming out of Pahoke, poetry. Now, it seems like all the new jumpers end up doing belly. It might be the higher barrier to entry. When FF was younger everyone was slop. Wasn't a big deal to get in with the regulars and be a part of the scene. The scene seems a lot more introverted these days, mad skillz required for highly technical jumps. Very hard to see yourself there starting out. Meanwhile the RW peeps are pulling people into jumps right off their A license and wingsuiting, I was doing 8 ways on my 3rd WS jump. Couple months later I was taking part in 40 ways. I sort of see WS heading the same way. We have guys now with thousands of WS jumps doing really technical stuff. Planning jumps with points and transitions when it's hard for a new guy to just hold a slot and stay there. But "normal" flocking is boring(they've done it a thousand times), so it starts to get exclusive. I see plenty of people trying on a WS, but most end up going "yeah, was hella fun" and then go back to RW jumping where they can play with more people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MartinOlsson 0 #122 November 3, 2009 This might be a local problem. Over here, the turn up in the countries I'm aware of, is pretty good. I don't know how many competing teams there are in total in Europe, but I'm pretty sure its well over 30 maybe alot more /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #123 November 5, 2009 Quoteit seems like all the new jumpers end up doing belly. Kids these days... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linebckr83 3 #124 November 6, 2009 At our cessna dz, rw was the norm. 4-ways all day long. Right off student status until about 150 jumps thats what i did. We have that typical skygod who has 2000 jumps over 30 years, never really did anything big in the sport, refuses to try anything new, and feels like he runs the place. I got tired of having fun on a jump just to get to the ground to hear how i fucked up his perfect formation. So i saved up for a freefly friendly rig and started to sit. Hobie goes to Dallas alot and is pretty damn proficient at a sit, and the only one that could at our dz. So Buff n I learned from him and trial and error. You'd be suprised the number of people who started trying too. Some gave up after only a few tries but alot have kept it up and can hold their own now. Of course this has really irritated the ol skygod. Quite frankly its funny when he manifests thnking he has a 4 way and finds out the rest of us are freeflying. We all join in on rw jumps here and there, but I spend most of my time on my head anymore. Theres no one here that can do it so its a long learning process till i get out of college and can afford some good coaching. Till then, id rather have fun and laugh when i flail instead of getting ripped for it. Im interested in competing someday, but its true that it takes a much higher proficiency in freeflying to do most of those formations. It's a slow process, but I'm sure there are alot of newcomer jumpers like me trying to learn as fast as possible to get to that level. Hopefully it stays around long enough for us."Are you coming to the party? Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!" Flying Hellfish #828 Dudist #52 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #125 November 6, 2009 When you get a chance come on down to Skydive Dallas. We will work with anyone that interested in learning to freefly or wants to work on being a better freeflier. We generally don't charge anything and really consider it to be part of the load organizing. Let me know ahead of time and I can either be there to work with you or find out who the load organizer is for that weekend and give them a heads up. I don't like charging for freefly coaching. I wasn't charged anything. I consider it as giving back to the sport and feel that it's my responsibility to help grow freeflying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites