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GPSJane

Can you go onto your belly while freeflying?

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I just started with some freeflying jumps. I was told not to go on to my belly as it could be dangerous. Basically my speed will lower drastically and if there are freeflyers above me they will go into me.

But since I am just learning there's no one above me, just a camera/coach to the side and I just can't help it; when I start spinning I automatically go onto my belly to get stable before I think about it.

I just read some other post in another forum where the guy was saying he does that all the time and no one seemed to think anything of it.

So is it really bad or can I relax about it?
Only skydivers know why the birds sing; they don't have to pack a parachute!

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yes it is a bad habit. When you start jumping in groups of freefliers it could easily cause injury to yourself or another freeflier. Try immediately pulling your knees to your chest when you feel like you are going out of your sitfly. That will keep your fall rate up.

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Going to your belly or 'corking' can kill someone. Even in a coach situation you should be briefed before the dive on how to maintian your fall rate. As the poster above me said tuck up you knees and feet and stick your arms out and start again. Or learn back flying and got to your back (this is taught in wind tunnels)

Any freeflier who corks "all the time" would never be on a dive with me. Accidents happen, I know I nearly had my shoulder dislocated. It kept me from skydiving for two weeks.

Im not a coach, BUT when I am working with anyone who is a very early in the stages of freeflying I like to spend 5-10 min talking about safety, gear, concepts and then the dive flow. Your not going to get it the first time, but we can take precautions to have a fun, safe skydive.

When fall rate go from 165MPH + to 120MPH in the blink of an eye that a 45mph difference. Imaging the damage a 180lb object could do to a body at 45MPH.
Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

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The first step in freeflying is learning to fly on your back (and you dont need a tunnel to do so like someone else mentioned.) So go out and learn to backfly, then learn how to sit. It makes it much easier to learn things in progressional order.

Safe is coolB|
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Do a search on exit order and see what people have to say about why many DZs put belly flyers out before freeflyers and what happens to each in the upper winds. Consider the possibility that if you go to your belly during a freefly jump you may drift above the group in front of you.

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Do a search on exit order and see what people have to say about why many DZs put belly flyers out before freeflyers and what happens to each in the upper winds. Consider the possibility that if you go to your belly during a freefly jump you may drift above the group in front of you.



I doubt it. The main reason for the exit order is to account for the different forward movements in the exits, there a head-up/down exit will make the person continue to fly in the jumprun for a longer period of time compared to someone exiting on the belly. So if someone is going to make a belly exit and then transition to head-up/down, they should exit with the belly flyers, before the free-flyers.

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Sorry brother...that isn't true. The main reason for exit order...Belly bigest to smallest, freefly biggest to smallest, Is the amount of time each spends in the uppers. The amount of drift each group will get, and how that will effect where we all open. It has absolutely nothing to do with how fast each group penetrates or slides down the hill. I think putting a new freeflyer out in the belly groups is a really, really bad idea. Now you have a situation where someone is spending a longer time in the uppers (corking alot) and probably flocking in some direction they can't really control...I vote they go to the back of the freeflyers....
All in favor!
Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
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I think the new freeflyers (corking a lot, on their backs...) should go inbetween the belly & the sit fliers.

basically the faster your airspeed, less time you spend in free fall the less time you have to be drifting down jump run. Since a new freeflier can be going really slow - they're almost a belly speeds.

When I was learning to sit I got in an argument with a very experienced freeflier on just this topic. I figured I should be out last, he explained that whole drift thing isn't just to divide simply between belly & freefliers, but between types of freeflying as well. He taught me a really stupid saying, but like I said I respect him... "fastest goes last".

It'd be a minuscule difference but you could even divide 2 2-way belly groups, the heavier the pair the faster their air speed, the less drift; therefore they should go before the lighter pair. But that'd get really silly real fast.:D

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

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I had the same problem when i was first trying to sitfly, even when i had my knees in against my chest i couldn't stop spinning and it scared me. So i did a coach jump and instead of trying to sit or whatever, the aim of the whole jump was just not to go on my belly. I just flailed around on my back spinning, couldn't control it at all but i didn't go to my belly, and at about 6 grand i finally managed to stop the spin and keep a heading on my back. After that i was comfortable enough not to go back onto my belly. Could be worth a shot.

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You get to the point where your splitting hairs. Fastest goes last? Not always, Tracking, Wingsuit, flocking all go last as well. I think you can catagorize most new FF as flocking. It's what most of us do when we're new freefliers (and some of us when were experienced;)) So you have somone in front of an 8-way hd group who is going to have A LOT of horizontal movement and is probably going to dump higher then the experienced group...BAD IDEA. I don't care about the changeable fall rate as much as I do about the horizontal movement. New solo freefliers should go last in the FF line up AND give extra exit sep.
Peace!
Jason
Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
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Sorry brother...that isn't true. The main reason for exit order...Belly bigest to smallest, freefly biggest to smallest, Is the amount of time each spends in the uppers. The amount of drift each group will get, and how that will effect where we all open. It has absolutely nothing to do with how fast each group penetrates or slides down the hill.



We had a jumper that jumped with a GPS and measured how much he moved forward with the plane when exiting on the belly and in HD. It made quite a difference. If FF group 1 exits in HD, then FF group 2 exits on belly and then transitions to HD, group 1 will be quite near group 2 unless group 2 waits an extra long time and that is just a waste of fuel... For this reason I say: belly fliers, FFers exiting on belly and then FF exiting in HD. When the upper and lower winds are rather equal, the drift doesn't matter at all since you continue to blow with the wind even under canopy.

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I think putting a new freeflyer out in the belly groups is a really, really bad idea. Now you have a situation where someone is spending a longer time in the uppers (corking alot) and probably flocking in some direction they can't really control...I vote they go to the back of the freeflyers....
All in favor!



Yes, if they move around a lot, put them last. If they can't make a good exit, they must wait more when exiting after a FFer that did. But then again, it is hard to move a lot in head up, especially if they end up on the belly all the time...

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When the upper and lower winds are rather equal, the drift doesn't matter at all since you continue to blow with the wind even under canopy.



Do a bit more research...this is scary reasoning...it's also been talked to death and proven...to me anyway to be wrong.
go here get the program and tell me what you think:
http://www.diverdriver.com/Spotting/Freefall_Drift/freefall_drift.htm
Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

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Ok here is a ff group leaving before a belly group. 20mph headwinds in uppers and lowers with an 8 second delay.
Now what your saying is that a hybrid spends alot of time as a belly group. If that is the case then it is a belly group. But, and its a pretty big but, it depends on what that hybrid group is doing. If it's a group of good ff and belly people that shit will be moving at freefly speeds fast. If your still learning how to do it, you spend alot of time at belly speeds.
Now I think the veriable you are missing is how long the groups are spending in the uppers. The belly group spends more time and so they get more push.

GPSJane:
If you are with a coach, they should know you are going to cork, it's part of learning to freefly. Just don't jump with other people (other then a coach) till you can maintain fall rate. If you have to garentee fallrate you will never learn to freefly. When doing a 2-way with a coach or very experienced freeflyers, just make sure they know your skill level.;)
Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

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New solo freefliers should go last in the FF line up AND give extra exit sep.




Generally I agree with this statement. However, a very experienced freefly coach and load organizer once pointed out the fact that newbies often SAY they will give extra separation, but fail to do so.

That's why he liked to stick them out first, treat them like a 10 way, and control the separation himself.

Something to be said for that IMHO.

(not to confuse the issue)


Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

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And that I can't argue with! If it's an option it's nice to have a aff instructor or TM direct the exit. It's always a good idea to tray and get them to stay faced perpendicular to jump run when playing in the air too. Sometime they do it!;)
Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

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Ok here is a ff group leaving before a belly group. 20mph headwinds in uppers and lowers with an 8 second delay.



But that was not what I was saying and thus your example is irrelevant.
I said belly fliers, FF:ers exiting on the belly and then FF:ers exiting in HD, or at least that was what I intended to say, sorry if I have expressed myself poorly.

The program that plotted that chart didn't take into account someone exiting on the belly, then moving on to HD/HU, did it? My whole point is, and have been, that the forward motion in the beginning of the jump is quite significant.

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FF:ers exiting on the belly and then FF:ers exiting in HD
...
someone exiting on the belly, then moving on to HD/HU



If you perform a normal head-up or head-down skydive, you should not exit on your belly because of the drift. If there is another freefly group that left before you, you could drift over them.
If your parachute fails to open, remember you have the rest of your live to fix it.

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FF:ers exiting on the belly and then FF:ers exiting in HD
...
someone exiting on the belly, then moving on to HD/HU



If you perform a normal head-up or head-down skydive, you should not exit on your belly because of the drift. If there is another freefly group that left before you, you could drift over them.


If you perform a freefly skydive where orientations change throughout the dive and include both flat and vertical positions, it definitely makes sense to exit before groups doing just vertical...kinda like he said, no?

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My whole point is, and have been, that the forward motion in the beginning of the jump is quite significant.



it's a good point.... but drift is the primary mechanism. Throw matters, but not nearly as much.

(It's gratifying to see more and more people here discuss exit order intelligently)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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If you perform a freefly skydive where orientations change throughout the dive and include both flat and vertical positions, it definitely makes sense to exit before groups doing just vertical...kinda like he said, no?


OK let's try it this way: if you only want to do head-down or head-up(stand or sit) and no flat positions (belly or back), you should not exit on your belly.

A group that changes between vertical and horizontal positions should exit before a group doing just vertikal, of course.
If your parachute fails to open, remember you have the rest of your live to fix it.

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