sunnerl 0 #26 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuotei'm gettin sick of flyers without the proper skills (600 falls???) not worrying about possibly killin people on the ground, ruining a dz and a pilots career... I used to know an engineer at RWS who was constantly dreaming, brainstorming, and coming up with kick ass new ideas. I'd hate for him to have read a post from someone like you. Who are you to tell someone to stiffel their creativity and imagination? He never said this plan would be put into action. I bet most of the safety innovations in this sport have come from brainsotrming creatively with people of all experience levels. Experience is relative. There is someone out there who makes your jump numbers look miniscule. I know a flyer who flew with the space ball and thought, dreamed about and invented it. he would not be impressed reading a post from someone like you.... this creativity and those ideas are public on the internet on probably the most visited skydive forum on the web. maybe he wouldnt put the plan into action. but maybe his "ideas" help the creativity of someone who would. someone with "relative" experience and know how. ask those questions to the people who make your jump numbers look miniscule. thanks to "skymama" to turn this post of the type "another one" into a post someone could learn of. ... if their imagination allows this. fly free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
avenfoto 0 #27 July 12, 2006 this thread is ridiculous... yes, a rubber skin, less than a mm thick, of reasonable size filled with water, is a "safe" (relativley speaking) alternative to a tennis ball filled with lead. presuming they fall at the same rate of speed, which they wont... i will be more than happy to try out the "waterball" this weekend Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fedykin 0 #28 July 12, 2006 well to put things simply, theres alot of people that have passed the AD A or achieved a higher standard than a AD A before having 600 jumps(i had maybe 500 jumps when i passed my A), so jump numbers alone tell only a fraction of the story. for example, theres a whole new 'tunnel generation' that can outfly most of us who have less than 100 jumps or what about mike mullins kids, unreal flyers, passed the AD at very low jump numers... under the proper precautions one can limit the danger involved with objects like skyballs so i wouldnt mount the high horse yet im pretty sure you associate with someone who's jumped once or twice with a ball and who's even dropped one near the ranch... ask him about it sometime Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunnerl 0 #29 July 12, 2006 well this politics is just ridiculous. maybe people should learn out of what happened. instead of critisizing it and trying it agian. its up to you to try your waterball - have fun - loose it if you think it doesnt matter... just dont fill it with led please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,936 #30 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou do realize that you're arguing with a professor of physics, right? And he has some doubt as to whether a water balloon will break when dropped from an airplane?! I'm up for a little science experiement here: Vertifly and I will drop a 5lb water balloon on our heads, from a two story house. Kallend and Jakee can drop a 5lb brick on to their heads from a two story house. I'm confident enough in my theory....Vertifly? Jeff Apples and oranges, dear boy. For starters a 5lb water balloon won't fall at 160mph even if dropped from 14,000ft. To get terminal up to 160mph it will need to be around 15lbs. And whether or not it breaks is not relevant to the energy it imparts to the object it hits. According to your ideas a water cannon wouldn't work, since there's no skin at all on the water it fires.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,936 #31 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteYour "ball" would have kinetic energy of over 12,000 ft.pounds! A .30-30 hunting bullet has 1902 ft. lbs of energy. Holy smokes! That means water balloons have over 6 times the kinetic energy of a lead bullet, fired from a hunting rifle! Again, let's use a little common sense.... I suppose you DO know how to calculate kinetic energy.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #32 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteYour "ball" would have kinetic energy of over 12,000 ft.pounds! A .30-30 hunting bullet has 1902 ft. lbs of energy. Holy smokes! That means water balloons have over 6 times the kinetic energy of a lead bullet, fired from a hunting rifle! Again, let's use a little common sense.... I suppose you DO know how to calculate kinetic energy. Or use google. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vdschoor 0 #33 July 13, 2006 QuoteOk, maybe this has been discussed before, maybe it's just a dumb idea, but I have to ask... Has anyone tried using a (small) water balloon as a skyball? Just curious what the fall rate would be... maybe for belly flying, or not heavy enough even for that? Maybe put some led shot in the belloon, with the water? Just brainstorming ideas here! Jeff The idea behind this is great, a water balloon will easily break if it hits anything. The bad part of it is that it will seriously hurt someone or something when it would hit the ground.. even it's only a water balloon... We did a water balloon drop a couple of years ago, drop the balloon from about 300ft from under canopy and try to hit a target. Someone landed right in the middle of the target and two seconds later a water balloon hit that persons canopy and fell right through it.. Yes, a canopy is not a human or a car... but I think the water balloon would still do very serious damage if it hit anything. The cool thing is you dont have to worry about actually catching it, like you have to with a skyball, you could (in theory) fly up to it and crash into it in the sky and destroy it at that point.. but that still means you have to get close to it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #34 July 13, 2006 Edited because doing a PA on a Mod is NOT a good idea. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #35 July 13, 2006 Quote Water balloons can be lethal if travelling at high speeds, IMO. Back in 1998, I was doing a little tour of duty in Saudi Arabia with the Army. Four of my soldiers got bored and started practicing their indirect fire techniques with a three man sling shot and some water balloons. Three were shooting the balloons over a building and the fourth soldier was on the other side of the building adjusting their aim with a radio. Well.......long story short, they finally hit an Air Force Major in the head and it knocked him out cold. It was hilarious. Since I was their company commander I had to repreimand them but I had a hard time. I mean, it was an Air Force officer. Anyway, my point is, 78RATS is correct. Water balloons can be lethal. Now, on with the brain storming! "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefalle 0 #36 July 13, 2006 Quotei'm gettin sick of flyers without the proper skills (600 falls???) not worrying about possibly killin people on the ground, ruining a dz and a pilots career... First off, your response sucks, especially considering you dont have any information in your profile, secondly, do you think with a "C" license indicating you probably have less jumps than Jeff, you have "proper skills"? third, the word is killing, not killin. Furthermore, he simply asked a question, he never said he was going to create this type of object. Additionally, What the hell does his skill level have to do with his question? By the way, Jeff is one of the safest jumpers I know. Now, go away and come back when you have something constructive to add to the converstion at hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunnerl 0 #37 July 13, 2006 ok man - who are you? maybe try to learn out of the post instead of missing the point. the way i write killinG is definitely not the point. (...) and as i said - maybe he will not put it into action, but maybe someone who would gets here all nice iedas what to build and how and ... try to think a little further. now you go back and think... and what is the constructive part of your post? not impressive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymama 35 #38 July 13, 2006 Freefalle and Sunnerl, please take any further disagreements to pm's. While Sunnerl's original post may have been a bit harsh, I do agree that safety needs to be stressed and I'm really glad that the scientific aspects of dropping water balloons are being explored. She's right that the thread may give someone an idea to try it this weekend without thinking it through. We've all seen and heard of bored skydiver games that went bad, it's good to put the warnings out there.She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #39 July 13, 2006 QuoteApples and oranges, dear boy. Very patronizing... especially since I've been doing a little research on this, and it turns out this concept of a water balloon skyball has been thought of before. Wanna take a guess who it was? YOU! http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=288469#288469 So now that I suggest the idea, you patronize me and address me in a condescending manner. I guess an idea is only worthy of discussion if you come up with it... Much respect for you lost... JeffShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #40 July 13, 2006 Quotepresuming they fall at the same rate of speed, which they wont... Yeah, that's what I'm working on right now. I found this page: http://www.sfu.ca/physics/ugrad/courses/teaching_resources/demoindex/fluids/fl2b/density.html Looks like milk could be a practical filler. Unfortunately, as we increase fluid density, we increase 'hardness'. Hmmm. How can we decrease air resistance....Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yardhippie 0 #41 July 13, 2006 QuoteQuotepresuming they fall at the same rate of speed, which they wont... Yeah, that's what I'm working on right now. I found this page: http://www.sfu.ca/physics/ugrad/courses/teaching_resources/demoindex/fluids/fl2b/density.html Looks like milk could be a practical filler. Unfortunately, as we increase fluid density, we increase 'hardness'. Hmmm. How can we decrease air resistance.... shape, surface cohesiveness (including surface texture), and rigidity of surface structure. Back to square one. Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #42 July 13, 2006 Quotethey finally hit an Air Force Major in the head and it knocked him out cold Hey, at least it was only an officer, and an Air Force officer at that! Seriously though, how big was the balloon, and was it a typical party balloon? I've been hit with three man sling shots before, but we were using them as direct fire weapons. LOL. It stung, but nowhere near serious injury, but I didn't get hit in the head either. I would estimate the balloon size was ~6" in diameter. Been a few years (and brain cells) since college, so don't really remember. Web site says it fires them at ~75mph. http://www.slingking.net/index.html Jeff ps- prior enlisted Army, I'm allowed to tease. Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #43 July 13, 2006 you need to make a water balloon, put it in the freezer until it freezes, then remove the balloon. Use that as a skyball.... its just as dangerous, but if it kills a cow or damages a house, the evidence will just melt away. "see officer, it must have been a uhhh freak gust that brought a giant hailstone onto his house. We didn't drop anything out the plane today." [CYA] I'm not actually condoning this btw [/CYA] MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,936 #44 July 13, 2006 QuoteQuoteApples and oranges, dear boy. Very patronizing... especially since I've been doing a little research on this, and it turns out this concept of a water balloon skyball has been thought of before. Wanna take a guess who it was? YOU! http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=288469#288469 So now that I suggest the idea, you patronize me and address me in a condescending manner. I guess an idea is only worthy of discussion if you come up with it... Much respect for you lost... Jeff I guess you didn't read the whole thread or are being intentionally misleading. THAT thread was about balls with automatic openers that dispersed the contents well before hitting the ground or anyone underneath in case the user can't retrieve them. THAT was NOT your suggestion. Dispersing water at 1800ft would not be a hazard to anyone. Being hit by a 15lb water balloon going 160mph would be a serious hazard.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #45 July 14, 2006 How about some kind of dimpled balloon to reduce friction on the skin - like a golf ball? Therefore a smaller ballon to create the same speed?Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #46 July 14, 2006 QuoteSeriously though, how big was the balloon, and was it a typical party balloon? I never got to see the balloons. I thought it was funny so I let my First SGT handle it. He was actually pissed. I thought it was a very ingenious way of practicing calling for indirect fire. From my understanding, the balloon was shot over a two story building (in Eskan Village, Saudi Arabia if you ever had the misfortune of being stationed there) and hit the Major in the side of the head. He went down hard. It may have been how he was hit but he was definitely out cold (according to the General who chewed my ass about the incident). At least it broke up the boredom of that duty for a while. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #47 July 14, 2006 We took out a plastic ball about the size of a baseball filled with water. It fell at freefall speeds, the problem wasn't fall rate, it was how erratic it would fly if it had any air in it at all. Is it the rigidity of the plastic that allowed it to fall at those speeds? Honest question...I'm not a phisics prof.Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jose 0 #48 July 14, 2006 Making friends again with your condescending skygod attitude again Barbara? While you have a point at the potential outcome of pulling this stunt, as always, you lack the ability to address the person with any kind of respect. Your motivations are so transparent. This is why your warnings will only be brushed off like a mosquito buzzing in your ear. Replies like Kallends is exactly what is needed here. Although most people don't possess the educational background on this matter as he does, it put the answer to the question to bed for sure....using mathematics and physics. Did the original poster know he would get a reply so concise and accurate, I'm sure he didn't, I'm also sure he wasn't going to hop in his car and drive to the nearest University to ask some professor his question. Now instead of only him knowing the dangers in pulling this stunt......everyone that reads this does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #49 July 14, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou do realize that you're arguing with a professor of physics, right? And he has some doubt as to whether a water balloon will break when dropped from an airplane?! I'm up for a little science experiement here: Vertifly and I will drop a 5lb water balloon on our heads, from a two story house. Kallend and Jakee can drop a 5lb brick on to their heads from a two story house. I'm confident enough in my theory....Vertifly? Jeff Apples and oranges, dear boy. For starters a 5lb water balloon won't fall at 160mph even if dropped from 14,000ft. To get terminal up to 160mph it will need to be around 15lbs. And whether or not it breaks is not relevant to the energy it imparts to the object it hits. According to your ideas a water cannon wouldn't work, since there's no skin at all on the water it fires. Physics? well I'll try:) Fallrate affected by effective area, weight of object and properties of substance wich object are falling through...So, If tennis ball (~6 cm dia) filled with lead to ~700gm (~1.5 lb) has apropriate fallrate, we need to make waterballon same effective area and weight, As water has ~11+ times less densety than lead our ballon should be 6cm in dia and (roughly) ~10*6cm in hight (looks like condom filled with water under pressure) Regarding kinetic energy: For person who will met the skyball or other object and will have to accept all it's kinetic energy not only emount of energy does matter, but the way how this energy will be distributed too:) Both sniper and his target absorb same amount of kinetic energy in case of succesfull shoot (some times if bullet pass through the body and leave it carrying some emount of energy - target gets even less than sniper) but results are significant different So been hited by 1.5lb of water in soft (plastic, or gelatine) long conteiner should be much less disruptal than been hited by ball full of lead...possible less enough to survive it P.S. Hope my understanding of Physics better then my englishWhy drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justnalias 0 #50 July 14, 2006 Quote "see officer, it must have been a uhhh freak gust that brought a giant hailstone onto his house. We didn't drop anything out the plane today." I like the way you think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
