VectorIII reserve

[Malfunction 0]

I have discussed thoroughly with my DZO and rigger about the VectorIII reserve firing problem. This was a problem that occurred when the rig first came out.

There was a revision made to the manufacturers recomended packing of the reserve pilot chute. Normally, Vectors have the fabric of the reserve PC tucked along the sides of the coil (from the spring loaded reserve PC, just so everyone understands). The container is narrow the way it is, so tucking the fabric along the sides caused the reserve PC to get hung up during deployment. Vector released a revision, but unpublicized, stating that the PC material should be packed under the coil of the spring loaded reserve PC rather than outside. This change has allowed for clean depolyment on the VectorIII. The rig in question was sent to the factory and everything was proven to be ok.

Feel free to ask further questions. I will answer them the best I can, and if I don't have the answer, I will find it.

I think I have publicized this more than Vector ever did.

Blue Skies!

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[Rdutch 0]

First off, I want to know how many reserves you have packed? Second how many vector3 reserves have you packed?

Now I want to know have you ever looked at the Vector packing manual? Or the addition to the manual for the V3? Cause if you have what you are describing makes no sence at all.
In your 341 jumps do you think that you are making news to the hundreds of riggers out there about gear they have packed thousands of times? Riggers follow manufacturer's standards but they also have a mind of their own, and who would put their seal on a rig that they asked you to put the pc material on the side? Maybe your rigger doesnt like the Vector, and that is his personal opinion, maybe your rigger packs Vectors wrong, but you should look into something and make your own mind up, and really really understand what you are talking about before you go into an International forum and talk about something you have very little knowledge of. (Especially based on the whole WORLD of Riggers and jumpers out there that know your statement is false). I still have my packing manual from my v2.5 (Vector 3 but pre release of v3) and it is exactly the same.
Also to point out the Vector 3 isnt Narrow its quite wide, you might be talking about the Micron which is narrow, but they are packed the same way. Now your rigger and dzo might have their own way of packing Vectors, by tucking the Reserve PC fabric down the sides. But No where in the Manual has it ever said to tuck the fabric down the sides.
People love to talk shit, heck I heard a story today about why someone thought Sigma tandems are bad, because Golf Balls can catch a line, anyone that knows anything about the sigma can find a laugh in that.

I would just like to point out that this poster has 341 jumps, and knows nothing about Rws and their products, he heard hearsay, and decided he would print his hearsay. If you have any question about any rig ask the manufacturer. And most of all look into it, and make your own mind up. I have packed the V3 reserve at RWS with RWS supervision. And never once did they tell me to put the reserve pc fabric down the side of the pack job, it has always been under the cap (slightly). Not in the spring like some do, heck look at the manual and you will see, Im sure its on the RWS web site.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[skygod7777 0]

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I have discussed thoroughly with my DZO and rigger about the VectorIII reserve firing problem. This was a problem that occurred when the rig first came out.

really, this is a new one to me, and since my dad had one of the first 200 v3's, i think he would of heard about this little problem.

Quote

There was a revision made to the manufacturers recomended packing of the reserve pilot chute. Normally, Vectors have the fabric of the reserve PC tucked along the sides of the coil (from the spring loaded reserve PC, just so everyone understands). The container is narrow the way it is, so tucking the fabric along the sides caused the reserve PC to get hung up during deployment. Vector released a revision, but unpublicized, stating that the PC material should be packed under the coil of the spring loaded reserve PC rather than outside.

i have made all the bold/italicized print here to let everyone know what i'm talking about

unpublicizied, huh, well i would think something like that would be a big deal, and every rigger would need to know something about that.


italicized part: wrong, look at a current v3 manual, it doesn't anything about tucking the matterial under the spring.

like ray said, your rigger may do this, but just becuase he does, doesn't mean that it's the "right" way.

if i sound like a dick, i'm sorry, i don't mean to be. i'm just trying to inform.

ray:
what differnce does it may if he "only has 341 jumps?" i can tell you none. he may have 20 years in the sport, just doesn't jump that much. it is unfair to judge someone due to jump numbers.


edit: look here http://relativeworkshop.com/pdf_files/09354.pdf on page 29 of the most current v3 manual, it shows you how to pack the pilot chute.

later



later

[brits17 0]

dude you are making no sense at all. i saw no service bulletin, i think i'll keep packing em the same way i do now.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[kenneth21441 0]

Hello all,

Having a vector 3 and also being my own rigger. I can tell you that in the manual/ video that RW recommends that the reserve piot paprchute (RPC) be first centered with the loop/ gromment... having said this then the rigger compresses the springs.. making sure that the pull up cord and RPC material is not mixed in with the springs..... Once the RPC is seated. and temp pin is in place I then make sure that all material is out from the RPC... then I S-fold the top portion of the material, then the bottom portion.... with a approx a two to three inch folds..... then I do the same to the left and right sides,..... then the sides is further S-folded..... onto itself........
I leave approx between one to two inches of material around the RPC crown.....
By not placing the material between the springs... this will further increase the opening speed and reduce the bulk rate of the RPC...

I hope that this helps you all in your search...... and remember the rigger pledge is " I will be sure, Always"

Thank you,

Ken Potter
FAA Rigger

Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

[diablopilot 2]

Take a deep breath and settle down.

You don't have to fight RWS's battle for them.

Maybe this guy is just badley misinformed. Help him understand what is going on.

Your post was kinda like a ton of bricks.

Just a thought.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[sunshine 2]

I pack them according to the manual. The wonderful thing about gear manufacturers is they're always willing to answer questions. I don't think any of us riggers are gonna read what the guy posted and suddenly change our packing methods. So he's misinformed, it's not like he can go out and pack reserves anyway.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[riggerrob 558]

rdutch,

Lighten up!

When RWS introduced narrower versions of the Vector 3 and Micron, I started folding the RPC fabric a bit narrower, to about the same width as the RPC cap.
This is a minor variation on RWS' manual.

Besides, jump numbers are an inaccurate measure of a rigger's experience.

[Malfunction 0]

First of all, I take no offense to anything anyone says. These, afterall, are FORUMS, NOT LAWS. Online forums force opinions, and everyone knows the cliche on opinions.

Secondly, AM I MISINFORMED? NO. I SAW THE RESERVE BEING PULLED AND NOTHING HAPPENING!!!! At the time, I didn't think to investigate for two reasons. Number one, I don't jump a VIII; number two, it wasn't my rig.

I decided to post this because I responded to someones question about what rig to buy and if there were any 'qwirks' about it. After posting what I witnessed, I was asked by a greeny to investigate. I did my research with others that witnessed it as well. The jumper this happened to fought his battle with RWS and my DZO was with him at the time.

I would have thought this to be an isolated incident with a poor reserve pack (not my pack). But ANOTHER jumper had the same thing happen at a different dz by a different rigger, but this time at terminal velocity (yes, he too had a VIII). Now I ask you all, coincidence? Am I poorly misinformed? Did I print hearsay? I printed what my DZO found out by representing the jumper.

Lastly, if what I have found out is in fact a bunch of garbage that has no business in a factual forum, why hasn't a greeny deleted my posts yet? Maybe, just maybe, there is a little truth in this? By no means is it intended to have everyone jump ship and ditch RWS, but it IS intended to make you aware that there were occasions that gear failed, and if you are concerned, you have to make the decision to further investigate or just forget about it. But please don't attack me, my knowledge, my experience or my sources.

Good Day.

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[Ron 7]

Rays questions about how many have you packed is a very valid point.

And from my limited rigging experience I have never been told to do it the way you describe.

And as Kelly pointed out the way you said it should be done was not in the manual.....

I don't know of ANY rigger that said they have gotten a service bulletin from RWS about this.

And knowing RWS I doubt that anything they do is not public knowledge.

Maybe you should do more homework before you post?

If you can show me the service bulletin, or where in the manual it says to do it that way, not just hearsay...You will have a valid point.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[KellyF 16]

I would like to see some scans or photos of the different procedures. Unfortunately, many riggers pack the reserve pilot chute and bridle differently than the manufacturer recommends, so it is pretty likely that you could have two rigs packed incorrectly by two different riggers. I am unaware of any significant change to the reserve PC packing procedures from RWS in the past 10+ years. Maybe they may have clarified how they wanted it done after hearing about riggers packing them incorrectly?

FWIW, the reserve opened fine the 100+ times that I fired it

• Quote

[freakydiver 0]

Here here! Did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed today (severe sarcasm here)...

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[mjosparky 3]

You don't know this guy but you feel you can basically call him a liar and claim what he personally saw is hearsay. Lighten up. How do we know you what you are talking about?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diverdriver 5]

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You don't know this guy but you feel you can basically call him a liar and claim what he personally saw is hearsay. Lighten up. How do we know you what you are talking about?

Well, I have to say the first post in this thread is rather unclear as to where it is coming from. It does not state what incident it is talking about. It just says "the rig in question". What question? Where did this come from. Given that and the statement at the beginning of that post that Vector IIIs had a firing problem when they first came out leave the reader rather confused as to the motive behind the post. I certainly question its timing.

Then it says RWS made a change to the packing instructions but gives no material to back that claim up. Point to the revision if you are making the claim. As of yet, no such revision has been posted. Not saying it doesn't exist. Just saying there is more that could have been done to make this clear as to where the poster is coming from.

So, given so little info on where this post is coming from one might look at the posters profile and see what they say about themselves. 300 jumps may be a lot but overall it is not a great amount compared to many other jumpers posting here. Time in sport is important also but that is not in the profile. I can somewhat surmize that Malfunction has been in the sport at least 2 years (if not more) because they were registered here on these forums in 2001. Again, jump numbers and time in sport combined give a picture of the person posting as to how much they might have seen up to this point. I have certainly seen many posters here get very dramatic about very small things or take an event out of context and paint a picture of dire events. With the second post by Malfunction we learn that it was based on another thread (which I still don't know what it was) and a moderator asked him to post here. Fine. Could we please have a little more background on this?

Look at the original post and then think how someone who has no other clue as to what he is talking about might take that first post. Sure seemed like a slam to me. Talking about a problem on a rig when it first came out that happened to be many years ago. If a rig had the same problem due to packing recently then state the problem. Don't just say it has a firing problem. That implies it was the rigs fault when in fact it may have been the way it was packed. As of yet, I don't know which to believe from this thread.

Since Bill Booth has not commented on this thread yet and has on others it seems that this problem or situation was blown out of proportion or is not being told exactly correct. Bill, if you know of this rig that the original poster refers to could you please comment as to what he is talking about? Or are you just as confused as me?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

But please don't attack me, my knowledge, my experience or my sources.

Good Day.

So you are above reproach? Sorry, no one here is. Not even me.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[billbooth 10]

You're right. I am pretty confused by this post. It should be obvious that pilot chute material should be packed (or rolled) up as close to the pilot chute cap as possible, especially on narrow rigs. As our rigs got narrower, we added secondary riser covers so that the primary riser covers could be cut back a little..specifically so that they would not trap the pilot chute in case of a (main) total malfunction launch. If you look at the narrow Vectors and Microns, you will see that the area which is not covered by closed main flaps or closed riser covers did not get much smaller, even as our rigs got tiny. I do a lot of testing with every new size rig to be sure that a closed main will not trap a reserve pilot chute. The result is that I have never heard of a reserve total malfunction on any of my rigs. That is not to say it is impossible...as I love the say, the idiots are ingenious at times.

[KellyF 16]

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."- Douglas Adams

[mjosparky 3]

I agree with you, his knowledge and experience are limited. When I read his first post I get the feeling he is parroting what he has heard/been told by a DZO and a rigger. Rather then jump his shit for bring this up, it would be more productive to get more information on the incident to find out just what did or did not happen. JMO

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

I agree with you, his knowledge and experience are limited. When I read his first post I get the feeling he is parroting what he has heard/been told by a DZO and a rigger. Rather then jump his shit for bring this up, it would be more productive to get more information on the incident to find out just what did or did not happen. JMO

Yah but this comment:

Quote

I think I have publicized this more than Vector ever did.

Doesn't set me into thinking this conversation is going to be a very informative conversation. I think RWS has shown that they can get bulletins out to the community in a timely manner for all to benefit.

And could someone please post a link to this other thread where this supposedly came from? I'd like to read it too.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[skycat 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=619829#619829

Fly it like you stole it!

[mjosparky 3]

Bill probably does more testing then most and I have no doubt that if there was even a hint of a design problem it would have been addressed "right now". But there appears to have been some kind of problem with two rig. If Malfunction could provide names, ser. # and how to contact it would more than likely turn out to be a misunderstanding. In any case it needs to be resolved.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Malfunction 0]

Correction:

NOT VIII, it was V2.5 packed under V2 instructions.

Bill, Egon has the information and the person this happened to. They will be able to provide further and more detailed information.

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[Pablito 0]

The only thing that I can say is that the rigger that packed that reserve should be approached and shown the proper way to close the reserve container, that's why there is a Data card in each rig so it could be traced.
I don't have lots of experience, and my english is not the best in the world, but you wrote a really confusing post there.
Call RWS talk to them, they are really helpful, Ty is amazing at packing Microns, Louis Palomares is a great rigger also. they are the people that work and design the product. Talk to them.
By the way, do research before posting something here.
And probably the greenys are not deleting this to make other people think.
I'm noone this are my 2 cents.

"If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first"
Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito