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freakfly24

Freeflying Safely at Higher Elevation DZ's

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OK here's the deal. Tell me what you think.

I'm currently assigned to a military dropzone. We are looking at the possibility of starting a freefly program here, but people are concerned about the limitations of the gear (if any) and malfunctions when jumping at a DZ 6000 feet above sea level. I'm asking all of this because there have been statements made here that need to be either substantiated or dismissed. People are making comments like " If we start freeflying here (due to the altitude of the DZ and possible premature deployments) , we will kill somebody". I feel that these arguments are unsubstantiated due to the fact that we already perform maneuvers here that occur at freefly speeds and on the different axis's of flight. For example... We perform style jumps here. The style jumpers either go into a stand or go head down to build speed for their "set" of maneuvers. These speeds are well above belly flying speeds, but they are "acceptable" because style is accepted and established here. Freeflying occurs at the same speeds that the style jumpers are flying. Style jumpers also fly on multiple axis's and again, this is acceptable because it is style. Freeflying occurs on multiple axis's but is considered dangerous. We have another maneuver here called a "High-Low" that we use for Demo jumps. Two people exit at the same time. One person is wearing a large floppy suit that allows them to slow their fall rate substantially, while the other person wears a tight RW suit and goes into a no lift head down dive to attain as much speed and separation as possible. This maneuver easily exceeds the speeds of normal relative work and normal freeflying, but it is accepted. We routinely do Big Ways here. People tracking down to the large formations are routinely exceeding normal RW and freeflying speeds and their doing it while heading for a large group of people.These are just some of the things that occur here and have been going on for many many years. These things were going on before containers were even designed to handle speeds in excess of 120 mph.

I feel that with the proper training, freeflying can be performed safely here at the Air Force Academy. I think that the arguments being proposed against it are not well founded in reality. I interpret the incorporation of modern freeflying as an expansion on the things that we have already been doing safely for many years. We have already been doing multi axis and high speed flight, but it has just been given a different name. I want to see our sport and my squadron continue to develop, but I can't be the only person speaking up. Somebody had to propose every evolution that has been made in this sport (Style, Accuracy, 4-way, Big-ways, Swooping, Freeflying, ect...) Please help me out and provide me some well founded thoughts and ideas on my issue.

Thanks!

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Bear in mind that I'm a 2002 grad of the beautiful blue zoo, and that your compatriots at the 98th didn't think I was good enough for them.

That said, I think that a freefly program at the zoo is a good idea, BUT it will take significant changes to the way they do things at the 98th to make it work. First off, they need more appropriate gear. A Talon with a Classic 250 isn't exactly freefly friendly, ya know?

Second, they need to split the comp team into several subgroups, ie one group that does style & ac, one group that does 4 way, and one group that does freefly. While they're doing that, the four way kids could benefit from slightly smaller rigs too. The reason I think the team should be split is that most cadets graduate with about 500 jumps, so you have to really focus on one discipline if you're going to win.

Third, they need to get some people that know what they're talking about when it comes to freeflying to be instructors. I know Chad and Grant (if they're still there, that is) are both pretty decent on their heads, but the Zoo needs to recruit some really good talent if they want to start a freefly program.

As to your questions, I don't see anything inherently terrible with them teaching cadets to freefly, and I think the 98th's arguments are largely idiotic.

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Thanks for the input. I am trying to put together training trips for some of the staff here to get spun up on being freefly instructors, but I have met with some oposition in the process. If I can find the right awnsers to the right questions, then I could make this happen. Chad is one of the people I'm trying to make an instructor along with 3 others. Grant is no longer in, he got out. I have one or two cadets that are talented enough to become instructors with a little more training. Do you think that freeflyng is more dangerous at a higher elevation DZ than at sea level. Take into consideration premature deployments and stuff.
Blue Skies!

PS We have Talon FS and Vector 3 containers w/ Spectre 170's, PD-235's,& PD-253's. Reserves are PD-176R and PD-218R. All With Cypres's

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Short answer: Vector good, altitude no problem.

Long answer: check your private messages.

Other unrelated topic: how's AM490 going? that program scares me, and should scare any skydiver. (for everyone else, it's a first jump course for cadets where you do 5 jumps, all 10 second solo freefalls from 4500)

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Quote

but people are concerned about the limitations of the gear (if any)



From a legal standpoint, almost all head down speeds and most sit/stand fly speeds are outside the operating limitations of ANY equipment. Deployments at those speeds can be fatal.

So can drowning in your cereal bowl.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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I've spoken to all the manufacturers that make our gear and they have said that all of their equipment is up for the task of freeflying. Each of them has assured me that the higher DZ elevation will have minimal (if any) impact on freefly safety and that freeflying will be no more dangerous than anything else we already do. I made sure to explain that we will have a structured training plan with expert coaching if the program is allowed to be implemented.

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"Other unrelated topic: how's AM490 going? that program scares me, and should scare any skydiver. (for everyone else, it's a first jump course for cadets where you do 5 jumps, all 10 second solo freefalls from 4500) "



Scott,

If there was any incling that 490 was unsafe in any standpoint, do you think that Upper level leadership would let the program continue? Have you thought about the static line progression that several civilian DZ's use? Compare them, and you will find a lot of similarities. I challenge any civilian DZ to compare safety records with USAFA. I think that almost all of the civilian DZ's would fall short. Just because you went throught the program doesn't mean you really know that much about the program. So instead of talking out of your ass, why don't you research a subject prior to comenting about it. Do you honestly think that we as Staff members would let a cadet anywhere near an airplane if we felt that we did not arm them with the knowledge of how to save their own life? Look back at the training you recieved and compare it to any first jump course in the world. Can you tell me that any of those FJC's are as comprehensive, or as rigorous as that of the academy? If a cadet didn't pass the evaluation on a block of instruction, then that person was retrained, and if they still didn't comprehend the subject, then they got to do other things while their friends jumped. So you say 490 scares you and should scare anyother skydiver. I say most civilian DZ's training programs are inadiquate, and "SCARY". Do you want to compare the equipment there at the academy to any other civilian dz, or shall we move on?


As far as the freeflying stuff goes, think about the big picture of what the Academy Parachute team does. The entire reason they are around is to run 490 as a leadership laboratory. The focus on 4-way, style , acc, and freefly is just a fring benefit. How has doing freefly helped you out as a carreer Air Force Officer? Neither would 4-way, style, acc, or doing Airshows help you out in that respect in your carreer. Let's focus on the freefly issue at hand. Freefly is a "Trial Event" at the US Collegiate Nationals" The only medals that count are the 4-way, style, acc, and 2 way. Now put yourself in the 98th commanders shoes. Medals are good things to show your boss, as he goes and tells his boss that the people below him are "Dominating the collegiate parachuting nationals", and it goes up the chain so on and so forth. Why should the CC take focus away from the medaling events, where the Army is giving the AF a run for their money, and expend unnecesary energy on something that get's him no reward? Now lets take a look at the safety factor of why we do not have freeflying at USAFA. We take cadets with approx 50-150 jumps and put them in collegiate comp. Some of these cadets can barely do 4-way with out one person backsliding the entire dive, another person having fall rate issues, and a third person making hard docks causing the entire formation to funnle. Now do you think that it's a smart idea to try and teach them to fly on their heads, and asses, and increase their vertical decent rate to speeds of 150+. This would make an allready short skydive in Colorado that much shorter, decreasing their working time in the air, and possibly throwing off their internal clock. The last thing the commander needs is to report to his boss that "We have had a 78% increase in AAD fires because we are freeflying." Malfunctions just don't stay in house. A report is generated, and is sent to the pentagon. Every year a Malfuntion Review Board is formed at the pentagon and all of the malfunctions are examined. Now how do you think Senior level leadership is going to react when they see the Academy having a skyrocketing malfunction rate. "Why are we spending millions of dollars a year, when there is a war going on, on a character development program where our future leaders are trying to kill themselves?" That's exactly what they are going to think. So you see Freeflying at the Academy has no relavence to anything that goes on there. Now if it became a medaling event at collegiates, then they may weight the risks and rewards against their Operational Risk Matrix, and make a decision from there. You are familiar with the AF's love of ORM aren't you?

Now I hope you are slightly more informed about the program that you only saw a small part of.

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Wow Grant, you've changed in the last few years. I'll be brief.

1) Ground training, no matter how exhaustive, is no substitute for in-air experience. A solo freefall for someone with absolutely no freefall time, no matter how much ground time they have, is still scary in my opinion. You still make the WOGs do AFF, right? If the many hours of ground training were enough, why bother to have an instructor there with them? And last time I checked, the Academy is the only place in the country that does solo freefall as the first jump.

2) I have no doubt that some civilian programs are scary, and inadequate. This is clearly an unrelated issue. However, I have full confidence in the gear at Calhan where I trained, much more than I had when jumping a rig with 2 FXCs at the Academy (I realize they've converted to cypres now, which is a step in the right direction).

3) I seem to recall a few years ago you were pretty interested in getting freeflying going at the Academy. What changed?

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I gave up on the non winnable fight. It would be cool and all for it to happen, but for the reasons stated, I doubt it would happen. Now if a few people left or retired, then there may be a better chance. But there are some civilians so entrenched in their old ways, that it wont happen untill they go away.

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Also those FXC's are the best maintained FXC's in the world. I trusted them to work, but it's getting to be more cost effective to go with thte CYpri!!! So what are you doing in the AF now? I got out and I'm now a civilian down at peterson. Are you still jumping a lot?

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what i'm wondering is where do i sign up to be "assigned" to a dropzone to skydive on uncle sam's tab?!

sounds like a slice of heaven...

or am i all wrong?
-Ghetto
"The reason death cannot frighten me, is because life has cured me of fear."
Web Design
Cleveland Skydiving

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Yeah something tells me freeflying here is never gonna happen. Now for a much more worthwhile idea: Let non-team members jump the otters on the weekend!! Please? I'm sure there's an easy way to work around all the paperwork . . . "renting the plane" to the pilots who are suddenly "off duty"? Come on, you know you want to . . .

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