[Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps..

[rehmwa 2]

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very nice posts of yours in this thread, bill! i've enjoyed reading them and share your opinion on the subject.

Leave it to a Couch Freak to agree with me. Now I'm scared..... You do know I'm a freak from young Grindle's generation. Actually surprised either me or Matt is still alive by now.

See you in Aug/Sept

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billo 0]

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You do know I'm a freak from young Grindle's generation. Actually surprised either me or Matt is still alive by now.

no crap, i had seen you at the boogie and probably talked to you after many trips to the beer truck before, but had no clue you ran around with his sort back in the day. i guess i always figured you for much younger. it really is a surprise that matt is still alive...i sure hope he gets dragged out to the dz this year for more than one or two trips. good to know what you've been kicking after all that time too.

so did you go to school in iowa then? jump with the freaks before the dropzone in winterset?

at winterset, we have been pretty back and forth between RW and FF. some seasons, everyone wants to focus on some serious FF, then during that winter everyone talks about mixing it up and doing serious RW the next year. it goes back and forth and nearly everyone crosses the line each year to do what the rest of the sneetches are doing. both disciplines are a blast, and that may have to do with the folks you are participating with. i'm glad that we're the folks that can have fun doing anything! oh and btw, i've heard that 2004 is going to be "the year of the belly", but that will be decided once we see how our teams do at the npsl meet at skydive iowa this upcoming weekend...

113 days, 11 hours, 21 minutes, 20 seconds and counting!
b

[rocketdog 0]

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They want to be part of the young, spirited, baggy jeans, tattoos, spikey hair, piercings, "look at me im so cool cuz im into extreme sports" crowd, which is the newbies view of the freeflyers.

that seems a bit stereotypical.... to say that ONLY freefliers are "cool" and "extreme".

ANYWAY, i mostly agree with #1-2-and-3. And i agree with WrongWay that a lot of the high-profile jumpers do freefly. I dunno that i would necessarily say a newbie would choose freeflying OVER every other discipline simply due to a lack of the "family" feeling. So what do you think it is more of: nature or nurture? (nature = a shift, just a personal choice/nurture = the environment, the influences)

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com

[WrongWay 0]

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So what do you think it is more of: nature or nurture? (nature = a shift, just a personal choice/nurture = the environment, the influences)

I think it depends on the person. For those who do it to be cool and part of the younger crowd, nurture. For those who do it for themselves, nature.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[rehmwa 2]

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I think it depends on the person. For those who do it to be cool and part of the younger crowd, nurture. For those who do it for themselves, nature.

Skydiving in general

1 - do it to be cool and part of an 'in' crowd. See you later when you quit the sport in 50 jumps - hack diver with ego issues. Enjoy your bowling and card clubs.

2 - do it for themselves. These are real skydivers and they'll love the sport and get better

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skipro101 0]

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I think it depends on the person. For those who do it to be cool and part of the younger crowd, nurture. For those who do it for themselves, nature.

Skydiving in general

1 - do it to be cool and part of an 'in' crowd. See you later when you quit the sport in 50 jumps - hack diver with ego issues. Enjoy your bowling and card clubs.

2 - do it for themselves. These are real skydivers and they'll love the sport and get better

I think thats true. And, If I am completly honest with myslef, I think that, at least in part, I started skydiving for the wrong reasons. Fortunately thats a small part, and I believe i have since outgrown this.

Dont ask me to identify the "wrong reason"...id be to embarrased to state it.

Make no mistake, im in this for the long haul though

[skipro101 0]

Oh, and id also like to say (not that anyone cares, im really just talking to myslef here ) that ive decided to split my time between RW and FF. I want to be a total body pilot, and although this is a much slower road to competency (if you split your efforts between two disciplines), I believe that in the long run, I will be a much better skydiver and will be having more fun.

later peeps.

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[benny 0]

Hey Dan, I got those coach jumps, you gonna fly with me now?

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[MarkM 0]

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Newer people may be afraid of being under pressure in order to peform the points correctly. They came to the DZ to have fun, not to worry about performing the points correctly. It may sound like a lame excuse, but it is a real excuse for some of newer jumpers. However, most of newer jumpers don't realize FF can be dangerous, i.e., corking and high speed collisions.

Pretty much dead on for me. Graduated AFF at SOBE which was nothing but FF and tried a couple sits solo soon after graduating because everyone else there was a FF'er. Was pretty uncontrolled though so I decided to stop attempting to FF unless I get serious training on it, I just don't want to risk sliding into another person's airspace.

Right now I'm at Miami which has a lot of RW jumping so I have access to that, but I'll likely still stick to solo belly jumps. I just don't want the pressure of having to perform, I got enough of that during AFF and am finding a lot of fun in just exploring the 2d world, perfecting my tracking, side slides, powerful turns, height control, various exits and so on by myself.

It wouldn't suprise me if I skip group RW and solo/group FF both and go straight into wingsuits when I have enough jumps/skill for that. It just seems like a very "fun" discipline and FF itself to me seems a bit "turn points"-ish lately when I hear people talk about it.

[apley 0]

I like this conversation. I am one of those who chose FF over RW almost immediately. Bored by Jump #60 of flying on my belly, I chose instead to make the world a dangerous place while I practiced sitflying solo. Fortunately, before I could take anyone out, an experienced FF'er went up and videotaped me sliding down the flight line.

I've had a few cheap lessons like that, some of them near misses, and potentially lethal. It's for those reasons that I now choose to make it my business to spot the new immortals out of AFF trying headdown and sitfly on solo jumps. It scares the crap out of me to think what I could have done had I not been intercepted. I don't want them killing me, my friends, or themselves because they were too shy to get someone more experienced out there with them to teach them how to play safe. SHY has no place in Skydiving!

I'm a good sitflyer, albeit a mediocre skydiver. One who recognizes his limits. Something only experience can help you truly appreciate. I learn a great deal from those I coach. The one thing I have learned over my 3 yrs in the sport is that the corkFlyers (sorry guys... just a little tongue-in-cheek) ride to altitude with very serious looks on their faces, and the FreeFlyers tend to be having a great time trying to decide which vertical antic they'd like to inject into this next dive. Every FF or Hybrid jump is a fond memory to me, even the botched ones. There's nothing like a little controlled mayhem to end a delightful day of FF'ing.

I'm hoping there are plenty of potential FreeFlyers out there that heed one piece of advice. Don't jump in alone! Get someone with some experience to fly with you while you learn. You need to be reasonably sure you are getting what you need to keep you SAFE at these speeds!

[jmfreefly 0]

Hey, thanks for the story.

It is funny how different dropzones are around the country. Our dz has lots of RW folks that are doing fun-ways and goofy stuff, and it is often the upcoming FFers that are concentrating hard on the plane to visualize the skydive.
Certainly safety is the missing element for a lot of the 'under the radar' newer freefliers. That is usually what I try to keep track of and help educate at our dropzone. Unfortunately, some people just don't want to listen sometimes. I was (maybe still am? ) one of those folks until I had a nasty head-down collision with another jumper. [FYI: Protect your spleen]


As for "don't jump alone", I would ammend that advice a bit. There are plenty of folks that are safe freefliers, but completely unfit to coach newer jumpers. In some cases, that jumper may be teaching them improper or marginally unsafe practices without realizing it.

Instead, find someone with good air skills, and the ability to teach. Take a road trip or two and seek out the better freefly coaches around the country. If money is tight, find boogies that have freefly coaches/organizers that are donating their services. Absorb the information like a sponge, and go into the experience with humility and respect for your coach -- you will be amazed what you can learn.

j

[pyke 0]

Well, not that it's worth much, but my $.02...

I agree with many of your points jmfreefly. And I also agree with Phreezone's comments too (I got yo back, bro!). I started off on my belly and did my first 250 jumps that way. Sure, I played around a bit and had some fun doing 'nothing' skydives, but I can fly my slot and build just about any 5 way you can picture. I believe my RW skills are honed enough that, for now, they're good enough.

I've also gained much more confidence in my canopy flying and setting up to know that I can land on or off the dz (an often overlooked aspect of the sport...and I have the femur scars to prove it!).

So, now I'm looking for what else I can do. If you were to ask me - birdman is where my heart is...but I don't own a suit yet, and with only a few BM's around my dz - I'd like to have some fun doing other stuff too. I've done about 30+ FFs and I don't know crap!!...so, for me, the fun is learning something I didn't know.

I love it when dives work though...and when I'm on my belly and we work out a plan that is executed nearly flawlessly in the sky - THAT IS WHERE IT'S AT!! I'm guilty of being one of those "jump out and work it out" jumpers for FF'ing, but for now - I need to be. I would really like to be a skydiver who can fly their slot in any position. But, I'm also guilty of being one of those RWers who used to say, "oh, you're with the 'dark side'"

I believe that every jumper should be able to make the claim that they can fly their slot - no matter what. It's not only safer for everyone if you can, but it's safer for you "should" something ever happen where you need to work it out quickly. Flying stable is paramount - Landing is even more critical!!

Anyway - like I said, not worth much, but my $.02

Kahurangi e Mahearangi,
Kiwi, RB #926, AFF-I, FAA Snr. Rigger, RN/BSN/Paramedic

[AdD 1]

For CSPA Licence you have to do a "ride the slide" exit which is essentially sitflying. I guess the idea is to ensure people can recover stability from different exit positions, but then again you could just have a jm toss your ass out the door. This is actually a relatively new addition to our licence requirements, and I wonder if it reflects the shift toward freeflying at earlier jump #'s. I had so much fun on my first one I did it again on my last jump and ended up going into a slow flat 360 before I went back to my belly... I think I'll do that exit for the next 10 jumps and see if I can hold it together down to terminal.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[karrigirl 0]

Ya, In Canada with your A you can only do 2 ways with a B lic. holder... for your B lic. you need to perform a fig.8 in the "on back" or "sit position" (+/-45)... then with your B you can do group formations, coach courses, rigger courses... etc.
This weekend I experienced some frustrations with that...
My rig was getting repacked so I rented the student rig, the one I used so many times before.(so no FF)
Im still a newbie with 50 jumps... I was amazed how difficult it was for me to find someone to RW jump with. The experienced jumpers were wanting to do big-ways and alot of them were saving there "fun" jump ticket to do FF... and frankly I didn't want to pay for a RW coach jump... I think I've payed enough $ for my skill. I can keep stable, do my turns, keep relative, track,and make some points... I just wanted to do some fun jumps. Dayle did come to the rescue who I had to take away from his FF and had a couple fun jumps with. also the last load of the weekend, Dayle and I were the only RW jumpers on the otter.
In between loads... It was the FF who offered there excitement and free tips. The girls giving there input about holding a sit, practicing with me on the ground etc.... it was fun, and Im going to have no problems spending my $ on FF coach lessons.
And who knows' when I get my B lic. maybe I'll enjoy doing the 4-ways.... NOT

The mighty ocean has but one taste, the taste of salt. Even so, the true way has but one savor, the savor of freedom.

[Fast 0]

I find enjoyment in both and I think there are cool tihngs about both.

The problem as I see it, is that it is much easier to come down off of an RW jump and be pissed off at yourself or have people pissed off at you. If the RW your doing is with people who are more experienced and willing to teach you thats great but when you screw up you feel bad because your wasting thier time. This is something that does cause a lot of stress for newer jumpers. You are stuck in the middle of two problems. You will learn a lot more on an RW jump that has other jumpers that are more experienced than you but you can "waste thier time" contrasted against a RW jump with people about your level where they won't be mad at you as much if you screw up but you stand to learn less from them. So there is a dilema in that.

When it comes to FF you are pretty much starting out solo or with a paid/unpaid coach who knows that you are going to suck and is doing it for that express purpose of making you better. Just you and him, no one else to screw around, and it doesn't really cut into what they want to be doing (because thier a "coach.") Much less preasure because of the circumstances. Once you get beyond the "can only fly solo/can't control motion" stage of FF you might not be as good but it seems that it is easier to get on a "low preasure fuck around" FF jump than it is to do the same in RW. Your not being rigid to structure and that prevents the problem of wasting the other persons jump as much. At this stage it would seem like your jumping more with the competant flyers that are in the pre-form stage of FF (Meaning they are getting good a flying but haven't progressed to only doing structured jumps.) So the progression is smoother.

This isn't to say that the same doesn't exist on the RW side it just seems that its much harder to find people who are able to give a person experience and also not get pissed because your new and not that good. I personally think that its important to have (in the long run) a understanding of both FF and RW, at least at my DZ because we are pretty splitt on the disciplines. Even the "old timers" are all starting to learn to FF because they are bored with RW and its something new for them.




Background:

I have about 86 jumps, about 15 of which are working on a sit when I can't find anyone else to jump with, or when a FF LO is in town visiting. My main focus on jumping has been RW activities. My personal feelings vary, some days RW is cool when shit is working, but the days when its not I leave the DZ unhappy and upset and that sucks. At this point im putting up with not having as much fun for the express purpose at getting better so that at some point I will be able to have fun with RW. Eventually I would like to be at least significanty competant in both forms, but for now I am doing mostly RW.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[DJL 232]

Logbook Entry for jump #12: "Tried seated thing."

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher