Chasing the ball from sidedoor aircraft...

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I'm not so sure that this is a good analogy. As someone already stated, the AD test is a test of skill, not knowledge - your cheat sheet is for knowledge, not skill.

I think it's an excellent analogy. The knowledge is already knowing what it is like to jump with a ball. Thus you have an advantage (or cheat sheet).

So balls should only be used for testing, and not for training?

Everyone says that the ball is an excellent training tool.

And what about the B test? if you've taken the A you already know what it's like to fly with the ball.

It's not cheating. It's preparing.

When I was in engineering school we'd work problem after problem while studying for our finals. They weren't the same problems that appeared on the exam, but they were similar, and we were training ourselves on technique. Were we cheating? No, we were studying for the test. And in the case of a skill test, there's almost no way you can cheat. Either you can do it, in a testing scenario or you can't.
And you are preparing for it on every skydive you make.

[apoil 0]

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I think you are missing the point. The initial "test" does more than simply test your skills. It also test your level of awareness. That's why it is recommended that you do not jump with a ball before hand. That is a recommendation for the 'A' test only. To qualify for a B, C or D you must first pass the A. That means to get one of the upper level licenses you must have already taken the 'A' test and thus already jumped with a ball. Therefore it doesn't matter how much you use the ball to prepare for B, C & D. Afterall, it's intended use is as a training aid.

First, don't go calling it a license. It doesn't qualify you for anything at all, and there's no universal granting body. It's issued by a private freefly school - so there's absolutely no legitimacy to calling it a "license"

Now, the issues you bring up here are getting closer to the meat of the issue.

So we're talking A test only. So here you are, an up and coming freeflyer on your head and you think you are pretty good.
You think you might be ready to get your A.
But you can't jump with a Ball beforehand.

Seems to me that that just increases the likelihood of a failed attempt or two, and then it starts to look like the design is to make you keep paying for A tests without ever being able to work with a coach on the skills that you need to pass the A test.

[Levin 0]

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I'm not so sure that this is a good analogy. As someone already stated, the AD test is a test of skill, not knowledge - your cheat sheet is for knowledge, not skill.

I think it's an excellent analogy. The knowledge is already knowing what it is like to jump with a ball. Thus you have an advantage (or cheat sheet).

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I think you are missing the point. The initial "test" does more than simply test your skills. It also test your level of awareness. That's why it is recommended that you do not jump with a ball before hand. That is a recommendation for the 'A' test only. To qualify for a B, C or D you must first pass the A. That means to get one of the upper level licenses you must have already taken the 'A' test and thus already jumped with a ball. Therefore it doesn't matter how much you use the ball to prepare for B, C & D. Afterall, it's intended use is as a training aid.

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So balls should only be used for testing, and not for training?

did I not say in the last line of the text you quoted me for that their intended use is as a training aid?

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And what about the B test? if you've taken the A you already know what it's like to fly with the ball.

good point. I think you quoted me for saying that too.

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It's not cheating. It's preparing.

When I was in engineering school we'd work problem after problem while studying for our finals. They weren't the same problems that appeared on the exam, but they were similar, and we were training ourselves on technique.

I agree with just about everything you have said. I agree with your anology and I agree that it is preparing. But it IS also cheating. You say it is similar. It is not similar. It is the same. A weighted tennis ball is a weighted tennis ball. It doesn't matter who owns it or jumps it with you. It is still a weighted tennis ball. Regarding your analogy it is the same test question. If you want to do something similar then have someone hold their fist out to simulate a ball.

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First, don't go calling it a license. It doesn't qualify you for anything at all, and there's no universal granting body. It's issued by a private freefly school - so there's absolutely no legitimacy to calling it a "license"

O.K. maybe you're right. A license to freefly is a pretty loose term. Maybe it's certificate of achievement or a respected title with unlimited bragging rights. For some it's a membership to some preconceived in-club. But for the sake of argument we'll call it a merit badge. Regardless of what it is or who issued it, it is an entrance pass or "license" to compete in the Space Games or what remains of them. It is also recognized by many as a level of proficiency. Otherwise neither you nor anybody else would care and we wouldn't be having this debate. I see much similarity between USPA's A,B,C, & D licenses and Olav's AD licenses. Both have a few simply stated and attainable requirements and both are recognized as levels of proficiency. Why say Olav's AD cannot be called a license. Neither have any legal backing. I am curious if you would call Olav's merit badges licenses if his freefly school was a not for profit organization.

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So we're talking A test only. So here you are, an up and coming freeflyer on your head and you think you are pretty good.
You think you might be ready to get your A.
But you can't jump with a Ball beforehand.

That's the general idea. When you think you are ready, go take the "test" and see if you can do it.

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Seems to me that that just increases the likelihood of a failed attempt or two, and then it starts to look like the design is to make you keep paying for A tests without ever being able to work with a coach on the skills that you need to pass the A test.

You seem to be really hung up on the economics of this test. You also seem to have some preconceived misconception that Olav is trying to scheme you out of all your jump money. Olav used his name, status as of the best in the world, and influence in the sport to create a successful system for categorizing freeflyers based on their skill. It’s successful not because Olav created it but because of the competitive nature of the sport and ourselves. It’s successful because we acknowledge, accept, recognize, place value and status on and strive to obtain his freefly “licenses”. Olav offers a service and charges for it. It’s our “need” for this service that makes people think he is charging too much or trying to screw us out of our jump money. If it’s something luxury that we can do without then it doesn’t matter what it cost, but if we got to have it then we shouldn’t have to pay for it, right? There is no shame in what Olav is doing. It’s his deal and he can charge what he wants. The test may seem expensive but as far as the dollar is concerned it is the same as a coach jump + slots. He is a world-class flyer. The mass skydiving population seems to approve of world-class freeflyers charging outrageous amounts for coaching. You are jumping with Olav. The ball is a training aid, therefore you are learning which makes it a coach jump. I doubt seriously Olav says you failed and doesn't tell you what you did wrong. I also doubt seriously that he likes to tell people they failed. After all it is he that recommends that you wait until you are ready. Those that follow that advice pass the test the first time. Those without patience or those simply after a low number pay him for the test several times. And they pay it by choice. Not because Olav makes them. If there is a problem with it, then that is our fault for paying him. If what he is doing is morally wrong then that is our fault for approving of and accepting his system. If there really was a problem then someone could easily duplicate the AD system minus it’s current flaws and call it something else. But that hasn’t happened because the mass majority of the upcoming freeflying population is content with the system in place and the rest of the world-class freeflying population doesn’t seem to care or give it much thought.

Since I've written so much about AD test now I'm going to go ahead and thro my 2 cents in regarding it. There are somethings I wonder about the test and somethings I don't like about it but over all I think it has/had potential to be a good system. The AD test defines an accomplished freeflyer as one who has mastered certain (but not all) aspects of freeflying. I wonder if these certain areas are enough to consider one accomplished. The areas that mostly pertain to the test are headdown and the axis'. Sitflying is not highly emphasized and belly flying is not likely applicable. These four areas together plus backflying and tracking are generally considered to be total bodyflight. Shouldn't a freeflyer be fluent in all these areas to be considered accomplished. I think the AD system would be even more popular and lucrative and could possibly become an industry standard if it was more georgraphically accessible. But by self regulating it in it's entirity, Olav has put a cripling restriction on the growth and future of his own AD system. I do not believe the requirements for the ADA are high enough. For an entry level "license" I think HD skills should be emphasized more than axis. HD skills could be tested by falling relative, one and two hand grips, hand switches, tapping and chasing and close proximity carving. These skills better demonstrate a freeflyers control, stability and ability to fly a particular body position which is a prequesite for mastering your axis relative to a ball. As of right now the ADA can be passed by someone that barely has enough control over their flying to keep from causing an accident. I consider someone with an AD-B thru D to be an exceptional freeflyer. But the ADA carries absolutely no weight with me. I have heard that Olav is selective with who can take the C & D test. I do not know that to be fact. It is simply rumor. But if it is true then my final complaint about the AD test would be that it needs to be available to anyone that qualifies. Available to anyone georgraphically and without any kind of discrimination.

Apoil, I personally question your motives for wanting to take the test. As you have said yourself it is a skills test. Don't forget that it is the accomplishment of those skills that you should be most proud of, not a number or a rank in a pecking order. The test is designed to test your skills and your marbles by jumping with a ball for the first time. If you are simply in a hurry to get a low number then go practice up with another ball so that Olav won't be able to take as much of your money. But if the test is about you instead of a low number then you are only taking away from the over all experience and effectiveness of the test by jumping with a ball prior. My brother is a golfer and I like his philosophy. The only person you are cheating is yourself.

Levin
vSCR#17
www.freeflyers.com

[78RATS 0]

has anyone ever completed the AD A test in a sit?

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[Levin 0]

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has anyone ever completed the AD A test in a sit?

i ballmastered for eric butts and he almost did it in a sit. It wasn't totally pretty but he almost did it none the less. Spent a little to much time stationary relative to it and a litle too much time watching one very nice wingover and descent. He grabbed it with both hands. The actual grip was nice but after the ball was in both hands he would fall backon his butt and decelerate fora moment before he put it back in the air. Which was also done pretty controlled. He's a good sitflyer.

Robert, you coming out this weekend to jump the polka dotted porter? Nick has to leave early Saturday and won't be out Sunday so I'm up for some fun jumps this weekend if your gonna be out. Oh and to answer your question again I'm not sure if anybody has taken the actual test in a sit but a handful of people have done the requirements for a simulated test or unofficial AD in a sit position. If you'd like come out this weekend and i'll go up with ya and you can try it if you want. I know I couldn't do it but from video I've seen and the TSL meets I know your sitting pretty good.

Levin
vSCR#17
www.freeflyers.com

[78RATS 0]

Stop it. Your making me blush.

Isn't there a HURRICANE coming to town?

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[Levin 0]

weather.com says 30% isolated t-storms sunday and sunny tomorrow with 20% chance of precip. But considering weather.com's trusted trac-record of possitive predictions we could just as likely experience a great flood any minute.

Levin
vSCS#3
www.freeflyers.com

[apoil 0]

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I think you are missing the point. The initial "test" does more than simply test your skills. It also test your level of awareness. That's why it is recommended that you do not jump with a ball before hand. That is a recommendation for the 'A' test only. To qualify for a B, C or D you must first pass the A. That means to get one of the upper level licenses you must have already taken the 'A' test and thus already jumped with a ball. Therefore it doesn't matter how much you use the ball to prepare for B, C & D. Afterall, it's intended use is as a training aid.

And this is specifically the training philosophy of Olav's First School of Modern Skyflying.

There are other schools that don't adhere to this specific training discipline, and have produced high quality freefliers.

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I see much similarity between USPA's A,B,C, & D licenses and Olav's AD licenses. Both have a few simply stated and attainable requirements and both are recognized as levels of proficiency. Why say Olav's AD cannot be called a license. Neither have any legal backing. I am curious if you would call Olav's merit badges licenses if his freefly school was a not for profit organization.

While the A,B,C,D designation was obviously patterned after USPA's, there's hardly any basis for comparison.

For one thing, the A is not in any way Basic. It requires a very high level of proficiency (with head down flying ONLY) in order to pass.
As a qualifier for the Space Games it was entirely appropriate, as that's a competition for advanced fliers. It offers nothing to the beginning freeflier looking to get to a recognized level of proficiency.

But most importantly, you can get an A license at ANY dropzone.
You can only get an AD A in a limited number of places, from an affiliate of Olav's. Since it isn't universally obtainable, or universally recognized other than as an achievement it's not appropriate to call it a license.

In fact calling it a license, and trademarking "freefly" are the two major points of contention I have with what Olav has done. It's not economic, they are good instructors and deserve to make a living. It's that he has tried to restrict and control what all freefly instruction must be otherwise, it shouldn't even be called "freefly" instruction.

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You seem to be really hung up on the economics of this test. You also seem to have some preconceived misconception that Olav is trying to scheme you out of all your jump money. Olav used his name, status as of the best in the world, and influence in the sport to create a successful system for categorizing freeflyers based on their skill.

except unfortunately, a lot of people got an A when it seemed to matter, and it matters a lot less today. Not to many people have gotten a B, C or D. Not because they don't have the skill, but because by that time they have rejected the notion that Olav, and his categorizations actually matter to them in their progression.

And then there are some of us, myself included, who have taken the A test with another school, that doesn't necessarily follow the philosophy that you should take the test with the ball and either pass or fail. But rather that since it is a proficiency level that can be worked towards, there is benefit to using the ball to train for it.

So are my skills somehow suspect now? Is my training somehow tainted? Because I "cheated" on my A test without realizing it?
I paid for skills training from one of the best freefliers in the world and I got my money's worth.

Come and make a jump with me and tell me what you think of my skills. Or do you not jump with "cheaters" ?

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It’s successful not because Olav created it but because of the competitive nature of the sport and ourselves. It’s successful because we acknowledge, accept, recognize, place value and status on and strive to obtain his freefly “licenses”.

And I must argue that it is UNSUCCESSFUL precisely because no one really needs the A to do anything anymore, and most people at the B,C, or D skill level are already so good that they have no need to prove themselves to Olav, to the world or anyone.

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ADA carries absolutely no weight with me. I have heard that Olav is selective with who can take the C & D test.

I trimmed you for brevity, not to quote out of context.
I'm pretty much in agreement with what you say about the AD A, although I think it's at the same time too advanced, and not advanced enough. There should be milestones for the beginning freeflier as well.

Olav is selective about who can take the C, it's anyone who has passed the B, which as you know, is pretty bad ass.

I trained with one of the most recent recipients of the C. Olav was pretty much grateful that any up and coming freeflier still shows any interest in the tests.

Olav does want to personally meet anyone going for the B. I think that's just because the tests, and freeflying itself are his baby, and anyone who can do the B is a really good flier.

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Apoil, I personally question your motives for wanting to take the test.

here you confuse me with the original poster.
I don't want to take the A test. I've already "taken" it, and I've already done many ball jumps and I'm working on skills far beyond that level now.

[WrongWay 0]

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Apoil, I personally question your motives for wanting to take the test.


here you confuse me with the original poster.
I don't want to take the A test. I've already "taken" it, and I've already done many ball jumps and I'm working on skills far beyond that level now.

Hang on for a sec. Are you now questioning my motives as well? Here's my opinion on the whole test. The definition of a license (loosely translated from my own twisted mind) is passing a test to gain the privelege of being able to do something you couldn't before. Granted, the AD qualifies you for the Space Games, but what good will that do you since it is, from what I understand, dying out? The AD to me is a test to prove your skills to yourself and to gain confidence from others who did not know you before, (not the guys you normally jump with that knew you as a bad flyer when you had 30 jumps, trust me on this, my name is Wrong Way ), such as trying to get on big ways at boogies at unfamiliar dz's. It has nothing to do with gaining a number, getting bragging rights, and it doesn't prove you to be a badass freeflyer. (well, unless it's the B or above) It's all about "I think I can do this, but I want to prove it to myself. I want to be known by the big guys only to the point at which if they saw me at a boogie, they'd come up and say "Hey buddy, wanna come on a dive with me?". It is a personal level to achieve, more of a psychological merit badge if ya ask me. I hope I'm making sense in my idle chatter, but what I'm trying to say is this. If you're taking the test because you want to get a number, tattoo it on your forehead, and walk around thinking you're a better flyer than everyone else, not only are you taking it for the wrong reasons, but it makes you an asshole. My personal reasons for taking it are to prove to myself that I can do it. It I fail, then I know I still have A LOT to learn, and even if I pass, I'll still have A LOT to learn. It's just self-gratification (no pun intended) to know that I have the skills to fly stable with the ball, fly freely, and take that extra confidence onto the next 15000 jumps with a smile on my face, knowing I can do it. So if anyone else questions my motives, I'm sorry, but I feel in my own mind that they're noble, and just like the difference between getting a number or not, I really don't give a rats ass what anyone else thinks of it.

By the way, just off the subject, what happened to Olav anyway??? I heard he's going back to Europe or something. What's up with that?? Peace and love you guys!!

http://www.skydivewrongway.com

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[mags 0]

are you bored?

dead issue

yawn...........

[WrongWay 0]

Hahaha, you're more than right. I'm surprised this post lasted so freakin' long, with so many views!! Jeez, ya ask a simple question and BOOM!!

(And yes, I am bored......)

http://www.skydivewrongway.com

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[mags 0]

I wasn't talking about you friend, i was referring to the micro-analysts who insist on bringing in all kinds of other shite into this deal....

I will admit, it is kind of humerous that some folks take the online forums so seriously.....

funny how you rarely see world class jumpers goofing off on this site....

THEY ARE OUT JUMPING AND NOT ARGUING ABOUT IT!

[WrongWay 0]

Yeah, I agree. People fight too much on here. Actually, people fight about stuff in the sport way too much. Can't we all just get along???

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.