WrongWay 0 #1 August 4, 2003 Hey everybody, I have an interesting question. I'm gonna try to get somewhere to take my Atmosphere Dolphin test this winter, and I'm trying to find the best way to chase the ball out of a side door aircraft. Being that I''ve always been spoiled with a Casa 212, I don't really have a lot of experience with side door planes (other than at boogies), hence my dilemma. If anyone can give me any pointers on this, it would really be appreciated. Thanks!!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #2 August 4, 2003 Step one: throw ball Step two: jump and chase ball It really shouldn't be a problem where the door is. If you're ready to jump with a ball, you're ready to exit in any direction. If you want to do it safely, come up to Areohio one weekend, we have several AD's who can jump with you to prep for the test (and no there are no hidden fees involved, we just like jumping with sky balls). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #3 August 4, 2003 I know it's really that simple, I just think I'm a little nervous about going down and testing my skills with Olav himself (as I've never met him) so I'm trying to get everything perfect. I think I just need to relax and quit worrying about it. I'd love to come to Aerohio (especially if you're jumping skyballs ) but last time I was there (I admit it's been a while) I got a lot of cold vibes from a lot of people there. Maybe I just took it the wrong way, but I know there's this stupid rivalry thing between our dz and yours, and as soon as I told people where I jumped, they just kinda gave me the cold shoulder. I'm a guy who will jump with anybody, no matter where they're from, and as long as they're safe flyers, I don't care. Like I said, perhaps I took it the wrong way, but because of that I'm a bit squeamish to hurry back there. If you could tell me anything about it or if I'm just mistaken, let me know. As far as I'm concerned, you offered me a jump, you're cool in my book. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #4 August 4, 2003 I work at Aerohio, and have never heard of any "rivalry". It's true, like any DZ, we have our share of jackasses, and maybe you ran into one of them. All of the freeflyers are cool, and willing to jump with new faces all of the time. Most weekends we have a dedicated freefly organizer looking for people to jump with. If I'm not mistaken, there may have been a group of freeflyers form your DZ who came up for our freefly money meet. I know they all had a kick ass time, and one of them took home some cash. Come on up any weekend. There's camping, free bunkhouse, showers and food on the DZ. I'd be happy to jump the ball with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #5 August 4, 2003 I'm sure you will try a couple of warm up jumps before you take the test, hence you can see what it is like to have the freedom to stand up and dive out. For the ball be as aggressive as you can without leaving before the ball. The ball will present very low surface area to the wind compared to a human with a less than perfect exit. Because of this the ball will accelerate initially, faster than you. So hawl ass to the ball. Get big and put on the breaks well above the ball and get level....breathe...smoothly go to the ball and fly up to it with your hand, dont reach like a madman. Being slow and precise will help you pass where rushing and panickaing will ensure you fail. Especially the last ball grab (lots of people fail here) breath...then fly your hand to the ball and grab. Good luck ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #6 August 4, 2003 Dave, Quote " It's true, like any DZ, we have our share of jackasses, and maybe you ran into one of them. " That could be. I really appreciate the offer to come up and jump the ball with you, and sometime soon I'll probably take you up on that. I forget, what kind of planes do you run up there? Don't you have an Otter?? Thanks again for the offer to jump!! Ramon, Hey, thanks a lot for the advice, I'll definitely take all that to mind when taking the test! I think the thing I'm worried about is the split second between being the the door and going totally vertical. I'm thinking it might be best to just hop straight out of the otter, doing a 1/4 cartwheel to the right so that my head will be into the relative wind, and I'll still keep sight of the ball easily. Either that or do just the opposite. Face into the plane, leave hopping backwards in a left 1/4 cartwheel putting my head into the wind, blah blah blah you get the point. Do you think that would be the best thing to do, or would you just say, "Leave the plane and keep your eye on the ball, and you'll be there."? Any advice would be great. Thanks!!!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #7 August 4, 2003 Roger that, Super Otter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #8 August 4, 2003 Nice. I'll try to make it out over the next couple weekends. Perhaps I'll try for the Money Meet too. Thanks man!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ramon 0 #9 August 4, 2003 leave the plane like a dart, keep your eye on the ball, and arch over in that direction using the relative wind. It's easy, what is hard is being aggresive and sort of doing the count in your head and leaving right when the ball leaves. Being late eats up a little time (been there done that, but the last time I took it I was really aggressive and I was there quick). Good luck ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BETO74 0 #10 August 4, 2003 Just a question / where are you gonna take the test? here in Pahokee? Don't worry about Olav he is the coolest guy haven't take the test and will take a while, but knowing him you'll be fine. Good luck.http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #11 August 5, 2003 You're down there with Olav? Hey, can you do me a favor and find out for me if he's gonna be down there this winter? (December) If you could find that out for me I'd be SOOOO grateful. Thanks!!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vertifly 0 #12 August 5, 2003 Hey Wrongway, Ask Olav as many questions about his test as possible before taking it. I've watched him fail someone because their arm-motion wasn't pronounced enough while passing the ball back and forth. Ask him if he will sit in the door and wave the ball back and forth on the count. During that count, never take your eye of the ball. It helped me to sway with it on the way out. Doing this, I made it to the ball before Mike Swanson did. And here is Mike's advice to me before doing the test (and it worked great!): 1) Aproach the ball without reaching. 2) Fly in front of it as steady as possible. 3) Give yourself an extra "Leg's OUT!!!" 4) Reach with both hands and grab. 5) Pick your transitions carefully. You can do two of any type as long as they are different. Remember that flips make you lose the most amount of airspeed. Using this method, the test was over by 9k. Oh, and remember have fun while your taking the test. It's only what, about a $130 jump... actually, I'm not too sure about the price, but have fun anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #13 August 6, 2003 Hey thanks for the advice! Actually it turns out Olav has already left for Europe, so I think I'm gonna go up to Chicago and take it from Mike Swanson within the next month or so, so wish me luck, and if ya know him, put in a good word for me!! You're tips will come in handy I'm sure. And dear God man, what did ya do with the extra few grand before breakoff if the test was over at 9000 feet?? Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mags 0 #14 August 6, 2003 Just to let you know... Olav won't let anyone else give you the license....These other boys can give the test, but you will not get a # if that is what you want. I beleive only Stefania can give #'s besides Olav.. I think People either do the test so they can put it at the bottom of every post they make on the internet and run around talking about it, or they take it to truly test their flying abilities in a scrutinized environment.......or both....but it seems like mostly for bragging rights.... Whatever your motivation... I got it because I used to jump in Pahokee and it was pretty accesible.... Don't stress too much, if you are ready for the test you should know it. And if you are, it is actually pretty easy. (also, if you do take it with Olav, don't tell him you practiced for it, he hates that shit....) Good Luck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #15 August 6, 2003 That works for me! I'm out to test my skills, not get a number. If I want a number, I'll jump with Olav sometime later, but for now I wanna just do it to know I can. Thanks for the advice!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites keithwilfort 0 #16 August 6, 2003 I think Stefania and Olav are the only ones testing for the AD C and D but Mike Swanson and Dave Brown can test the A and B and you'll get your number..... I could be wrong but I don't think so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #17 August 6, 2003 That's cool, I'm just taking the A test anyway. Thanks for the info! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites keithwilfort 0 #18 August 6, 2003 Here is the old post posted by Dave Brown I emailed you about. freeflydave Newbie (Full Profile) May 4, 2002, 7:51 PM Post #20 of 21 (364 views) Copy Shortcut Re: AD license - worth it? [In reply to] Quote | Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A test is a test, and it's just that, try to do manuvers with an object for the first time and gague yourself against it, and most importantally learn from the experience. Learn to fly, not to control your falling, there is a difference. As per the money issue, everyone has a job, a passion that they will follow through with so that every day they get to experience and further themselves in a particular field, some persons have chosen freefly instruction, and this as any proffesion has a monotary value for teaching and testing others. As per personal gradification and achievement I think it is great that people can achieve this test in a safe setting and feel good about doing it and not having the license, it's about doing it. However I do not feel that a person that flies with the ball in an uncontrolled atmosphere and practices the test numerous times then passes on their 10th try is anywhere near passing the standards set forth by the orginal idea and skills set behind the test itself. Again a test is a test, do 400 jumps and do the test and see how you fare. Don't do 385 jumps and 15 jumps with the ball and then do the test, this takes away from the orginal idea and concept of the "test" in the first place. These are just my thoughts from experience and I value anyone elses thoughts on this subject. Just to clarify for everyone I am a First School of Modern Skyflying instructor who does this daily, thanks for listening, if you want to comment personally contact [email protected] Dave Brown The Freefly Training Center The First School of Modern Skyflying AD-C-12 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #19 August 6, 2003 I totally understand what you're saying, and what the post is saying, and I agree with it. The test is exactly what it is, a test, and it's the flying skills that are required to pass, not practice. I feel confident that I have the skills required to pass, I'm really just concerned about all the little details, because once I get there, and get under the pressure of the possibilty of failing, the 100 bucks at stake, the prospect of actually passing, and everything else that comes with any test, people can react differently when tested than when fully at ease. That's the thing I'm concerned about. It's not how to practice for it that I want, it's just little pointers like "keep your eye on the ball, etc.". Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vertifly 0 #20 August 6, 2003 Me and Mike just continued to carve or something. All the while, I watched him in freefall saying to me, "You owe beer, You owe Beer, You owe Beer!!!" LOL Yeah, I bought the beer too. Reluctantly drove out to the nearest store in the Crack Dealing section of Pahokee for a case. Yikes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites keithwilfort 0 #21 August 7, 2003 whoever you do it with do a couple coach jumps with them to get comfortable with them. ask to do a similated ball jump using them as the ball. they do it all the time and use it as a barometer. it's a basic chase 'em down, clap on their hand, clap again. transition. repeat. repeat. repeat. etc. .....like any other unplanned freefly jump only planned. Dave says if you can slam in about 4 you'll probably pass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #22 August 7, 2003 Dude that's a great idea! Thanks, I'm DEFINITELY gonna do that!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Levin 0 #23 August 7, 2003 I really wouldn't sweat it. Think about it for a second. When you do your test you will be jumping with a base that is falling perfectly straight down at a comfortable speed. It's not moving around, won't do anything unexpected or anything that could get you killed. What more could you want? Except maybe something that smiles back and slows down to let you catch up if for some reason you decellerate. Don't take your eyes off and you won't loose sight of it. If you do loose sight of it, find your ballmaster and you will find the ball. Grabbing it is no different than docking on a formation. Fly to and stop no further than 2 feet away. Perfectly match the fallrate and fly your slot. Then with both hands grab the ball. I recommend chest level and if you're a light weight like me then a t-shirt wouldn't be a bad idea. Keep your arm steady when you release the ball. Any motion and it will move away from you. And if I was you I wouldn't go do a couple of practice jumps with a ball beforehand (unless you are simply taking it for the AD#) . Your paying a $100 for the jump. Why take away from the experience. If you are as ready as you say you are then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Most people I know that I have taken it, finished the test by 9k. Good Luck! Levin vSCR#17 edit: BTW, if you take the test from a super otter then you will be exiting from the camera step. If you've ever tried to video an exit and got left on the plane and had to dive from the step, then that is your exit with the ball. It will seem like it takes off quick but you will match the fallrate and catch up to it probably before you are off the hill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #24 August 8, 2003 Im sorry, but do you really feel safe to jump the ball with only 250 jumps ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #25 August 8, 2003 I know, it seems like a really low number, and I understand your concern. I may have a low number of jumps, but about half of them are all coached jumps (all freefly), and lots of tunnel time (a few hours, also all freefly), so while I hate to sound like one of those cocky "You haven't seen me fly" newbie asshole-types, and I'm not I swear, I feel confident that with all of my coaching and help I've had from the pros, I think my skills are up to par enough to pass the ADA. Now the ADB, there's no bloody way, but the ADA's a start!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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davelepka 4 #7 August 4, 2003 Roger that, Super Otter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #8 August 4, 2003 Nice. I'll try to make it out over the next couple weekends. Perhaps I'll try for the Money Meet too. Thanks man!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #9 August 4, 2003 leave the plane like a dart, keep your eye on the ball, and arch over in that direction using the relative wind. It's easy, what is hard is being aggresive and sort of doing the count in your head and leaving right when the ball leaves. Being late eats up a little time (been there done that, but the last time I took it I was really aggressive and I was there quick). Good luck ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BETO74 0 #10 August 4, 2003 Just a question / where are you gonna take the test? here in Pahokee? Don't worry about Olav he is the coolest guy haven't take the test and will take a while, but knowing him you'll be fine. Good luck.http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #11 August 5, 2003 You're down there with Olav? Hey, can you do me a favor and find out for me if he's gonna be down there this winter? (December) If you could find that out for me I'd be SOOOO grateful. Thanks!!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #12 August 5, 2003 Hey Wrongway, Ask Olav as many questions about his test as possible before taking it. I've watched him fail someone because their arm-motion wasn't pronounced enough while passing the ball back and forth. Ask him if he will sit in the door and wave the ball back and forth on the count. During that count, never take your eye of the ball. It helped me to sway with it on the way out. Doing this, I made it to the ball before Mike Swanson did. And here is Mike's advice to me before doing the test (and it worked great!): 1) Aproach the ball without reaching. 2) Fly in front of it as steady as possible. 3) Give yourself an extra "Leg's OUT!!!" 4) Reach with both hands and grab. 5) Pick your transitions carefully. You can do two of any type as long as they are different. Remember that flips make you lose the most amount of airspeed. Using this method, the test was over by 9k. Oh, and remember have fun while your taking the test. It's only what, about a $130 jump... actually, I'm not too sure about the price, but have fun anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #13 August 6, 2003 Hey thanks for the advice! Actually it turns out Olav has already left for Europe, so I think I'm gonna go up to Chicago and take it from Mike Swanson within the next month or so, so wish me luck, and if ya know him, put in a good word for me!! You're tips will come in handy I'm sure. And dear God man, what did ya do with the extra few grand before breakoff if the test was over at 9000 feet?? Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mags 0 #14 August 6, 2003 Just to let you know... Olav won't let anyone else give you the license....These other boys can give the test, but you will not get a # if that is what you want. I beleive only Stefania can give #'s besides Olav.. I think People either do the test so they can put it at the bottom of every post they make on the internet and run around talking about it, or they take it to truly test their flying abilities in a scrutinized environment.......or both....but it seems like mostly for bragging rights.... Whatever your motivation... I got it because I used to jump in Pahokee and it was pretty accesible.... Don't stress too much, if you are ready for the test you should know it. And if you are, it is actually pretty easy. (also, if you do take it with Olav, don't tell him you practiced for it, he hates that shit....) Good Luck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #15 August 6, 2003 That works for me! I'm out to test my skills, not get a number. If I want a number, I'll jump with Olav sometime later, but for now I wanna just do it to know I can. Thanks for the advice!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keithwilfort 0 #16 August 6, 2003 I think Stefania and Olav are the only ones testing for the AD C and D but Mike Swanson and Dave Brown can test the A and B and you'll get your number..... I could be wrong but I don't think so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #17 August 6, 2003 That's cool, I'm just taking the A test anyway. Thanks for the info! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keithwilfort 0 #18 August 6, 2003 Here is the old post posted by Dave Brown I emailed you about. freeflydave Newbie (Full Profile) May 4, 2002, 7:51 PM Post #20 of 21 (364 views) Copy Shortcut Re: AD license - worth it? [In reply to] Quote | Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A test is a test, and it's just that, try to do manuvers with an object for the first time and gague yourself against it, and most importantally learn from the experience. Learn to fly, not to control your falling, there is a difference. As per the money issue, everyone has a job, a passion that they will follow through with so that every day they get to experience and further themselves in a particular field, some persons have chosen freefly instruction, and this as any proffesion has a monotary value for teaching and testing others. As per personal gradification and achievement I think it is great that people can achieve this test in a safe setting and feel good about doing it and not having the license, it's about doing it. However I do not feel that a person that flies with the ball in an uncontrolled atmosphere and practices the test numerous times then passes on their 10th try is anywhere near passing the standards set forth by the orginal idea and skills set behind the test itself. Again a test is a test, do 400 jumps and do the test and see how you fare. Don't do 385 jumps and 15 jumps with the ball and then do the test, this takes away from the orginal idea and concept of the "test" in the first place. These are just my thoughts from experience and I value anyone elses thoughts on this subject. Just to clarify for everyone I am a First School of Modern Skyflying instructor who does this daily, thanks for listening, if you want to comment personally contact [email protected] Dave Brown The Freefly Training Center The First School of Modern Skyflying AD-C-12 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #19 August 6, 2003 I totally understand what you're saying, and what the post is saying, and I agree with it. The test is exactly what it is, a test, and it's the flying skills that are required to pass, not practice. I feel confident that I have the skills required to pass, I'm really just concerned about all the little details, because once I get there, and get under the pressure of the possibilty of failing, the 100 bucks at stake, the prospect of actually passing, and everything else that comes with any test, people can react differently when tested than when fully at ease. That's the thing I'm concerned about. It's not how to practice for it that I want, it's just little pointers like "keep your eye on the ball, etc.". Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #20 August 6, 2003 Me and Mike just continued to carve or something. All the while, I watched him in freefall saying to me, "You owe beer, You owe Beer, You owe Beer!!!" LOL Yeah, I bought the beer too. Reluctantly drove out to the nearest store in the Crack Dealing section of Pahokee for a case. Yikes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keithwilfort 0 #21 August 7, 2003 whoever you do it with do a couple coach jumps with them to get comfortable with them. ask to do a similated ball jump using them as the ball. they do it all the time and use it as a barometer. it's a basic chase 'em down, clap on their hand, clap again. transition. repeat. repeat. repeat. etc. .....like any other unplanned freefly jump only planned. Dave says if you can slam in about 4 you'll probably pass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #22 August 7, 2003 Dude that's a great idea! Thanks, I'm DEFINITELY gonna do that!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #23 August 7, 2003 I really wouldn't sweat it. Think about it for a second. When you do your test you will be jumping with a base that is falling perfectly straight down at a comfortable speed. It's not moving around, won't do anything unexpected or anything that could get you killed. What more could you want? Except maybe something that smiles back and slows down to let you catch up if for some reason you decellerate. Don't take your eyes off and you won't loose sight of it. If you do loose sight of it, find your ballmaster and you will find the ball. Grabbing it is no different than docking on a formation. Fly to and stop no further than 2 feet away. Perfectly match the fallrate and fly your slot. Then with both hands grab the ball. I recommend chest level and if you're a light weight like me then a t-shirt wouldn't be a bad idea. Keep your arm steady when you release the ball. Any motion and it will move away from you. And if I was you I wouldn't go do a couple of practice jumps with a ball beforehand (unless you are simply taking it for the AD#) . Your paying a $100 for the jump. Why take away from the experience. If you are as ready as you say you are then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Most people I know that I have taken it, finished the test by 9k. Good Luck! Levin vSCR#17 edit: BTW, if you take the test from a super otter then you will be exiting from the camera step. If you've ever tried to video an exit and got left on the plane and had to dive from the step, then that is your exit with the ball. It will seem like it takes off quick but you will match the fallrate and catch up to it probably before you are off the hill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #24 August 8, 2003 Im sorry, but do you really feel safe to jump the ball with only 250 jumps ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #25 August 8, 2003 I know, it seems like a really low number, and I understand your concern. I may have a low number of jumps, but about half of them are all coached jumps (all freefly), and lots of tunnel time (a few hours, also all freefly), so while I hate to sound like one of those cocky "You haven't seen me fly" newbie asshole-types, and I'm not I swear, I feel confident that with all of my coaching and help I've had from the pros, I think my skills are up to par enough to pass the ADA. Now the ADB, there's no bloody way, but the ADA's a start!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
