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blueshrew

What's with backtracking away from formations??

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yep, your right dude (still shaking my head). i vote we scrap the whole exit order thing altogether. would likely save alot of confusion. instead we'll just pile up in the plane (whatever order) and give adequate seperation between groups, say 20 to 30 seconds. this way drift (which is adressed by proper exit order) will be irrelevant.



Now I'm the one shaking my head.
This wasn't a discussion about exit order. But someone brought up exit order as if that were THE ONLY THING that would ensure proper separation between groups. We all know it isn't. Even with "proper" exit order the delay between groups should be longer if the winds are higher, and if someone bombs out with a 2 second delay there will be trouble.

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Now I'm the one shaking my head.
This wasn't a discussion about exit order. But someone brought up exit order as if that were THE ONLY THING that would ensure proper separation between groups. We all know it isn't. Even with "proper" exit order the delay between groups should be longer if the winds are higher, and if someone bombs out with a 2 second delay there will be trouble.



you need to go back and re-read some of this thread. my suggestion about proper exit order was in reply to the following comment by flyingferret...
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there should be no canopies open above 3K. Can there be? Yeah, but under the same circumstances that would make them a threat to bellyfliers.

flyingferret (according to his profile) is a freeflyer. he's talking about open canopies becoming a hazard to the bellyfliers. this sounds like an exit order issue.

you made the following reply to my post...
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exit ORDER has nothing to do with it

and then carried on with the argument that only "Proper exit SEPARATION" ensured seperation.

proper exit order helps to ensure proper seperation. you know that. i know that. everyones knows that. the two kinda go hand in hand since they both help to achieve the same thing and combining them is the most efficient way to achieve proper group seperation. not using a proper exit order coud lead to unneccesarily long delays between groups and unneccesary go arounds. the reason i did not mention seperation instead of exit order is because proper seperation is common sense. that's what we all hope to be when we open. seperated, right? everybody knows the wait 5 seconds between groups rule. even people just off student status. you see them all the time in the door counting to 5 on their hand before they jump. i think most people understand or are aware that drift, the uppers and the amount of time spent between groups affect group seperation. what alot of people don't know is the proper order to exit in depending on what they are doing on their dive.

levin
vSCS#3


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flyingferret (according to his profile) is a freeflyer. he's talking about open canopies becoming a hazard to the bellyfliers. this sounds like an exit order issue.


whatever the exit order, with 1 freeflyer and 1 belly flyer, the freeflyer opens first (well, i'm sure a smartass can find exceptions). Looks like the exit order is a non-issue on this one.
--
Come
Skydive Asia

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whatever the exit order, with 1 freeflyer and 1 belly flyer, the freeflyer opens first (well, i'm sure a smartass can find exceptions). Looks like the exit order is a non-issue on this one.



so, what's a ride to altitude like with only two jumpers? quick i bet ;)

levin
vSCR#17


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If you don't have the patience to play with his program, here is a simple JPG image of separation issues from 'wrong' exit order. This comes from John Kallend's site at http://lensmoor.org/cgi-bin/chute.cgi.

Not trying to create any arguments, just thought is was a cool illustration.
This example is jump run into 40 mph upper winds, 15 mph winds < 6000 ft, FF exits first, belly second with 8 sec delay

Separation Example
jhus..

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This is some great stuff, and I would like to add some as a novice FFer and SDer. I have luckily picked up a bunch of good knowledge regarding load organization, spotting, exit order from DZ.com and my inquisitive nature. The problem I see is that people with 20 to 100 jumps with average inquisition and less than average internet presence are in a dangerous spot. I feel there should be required education regarding FFing, exit order, and spotting in post A-license and AFF progression.
I see too many people with my same experience that know very little regarding the dangers of FFing with other inexperienced jumpers, don't really understand the physics or reasons behind spotting and load organizing, nor do they know that they are missing any info. I will make sure that I don't hurt myself or others, but I am afraid of others blowing through my altitude/air space. Just my concerns on the education of skydivers/freeflyers.
...FUN FOR ALL!

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