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peek

Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage

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The plane sits on the ramp for an extra minute and people shift around so that everyone has their own seatbelt and can reach it.

Not possible?
Not likely to happen?
No DZO in his right mind would do that?

I've seen it happen at SDC Summerfest.
More than once.

They made people tighten up the seating, and they had a bunch on one side take off their belt and hand it either forward or back because someone skipped one.



Not just during Summerfest. I have been on many loads at SDC that didn't roll until everyone had their own belt. It's just more obvious during the tourist season when people climb in and fail to consider where the belts are located and how the plane should be loaded.

Same thing can happen on bench or straddle seats -- even the small Cessnas. The plane has to be loaded properly so people line up with the belts, however they're configured.

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I have belted people in with my belt and had others do it for me. I was never worried in case of an emergency because the belt was attached to both of us, and my buddy has to get the belt off of me before he can get it off himself - and we take our belts off at 1000' anyways.
It would have to be a catastrophic gonna-die-so-might-as-well-try kind of issue to make me get out below about 700' so I am willing to risk that 500ish foot margin.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

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I have belted people in with my belt and had others do it for me. I was never worried in case of an emergency because the belt was attached to both of us, and my buddy has to get the belt off of me before he can get it off himself - and we take our belts off at 1000' anyways.
It would have to be a catastrophic gonna-die-so-might-as-well-try kind of issue to make me get out below about 700' so I am willing to risk that 500ish foot margin.



I believe that while FAR91.107 (3.ii) allows sport parachutists to use the floor as a seat, it still requires each person hto have their own seat belt.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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The plane sits on the ramp for an extra minute and people shift around so that everyone has their own seatbelt and can reach it.

... ...

They made people tighten up the seating, and they had a bunch on one side take off their belt and hand it either forward or back because someone skipped one.



+1.
This.
Period.
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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Ok in fairness to Mr. Peek, I'm 110% sure that he has addressed this issue first hand before, we (Gary & I) had spoke a number of times about a lot of issues, this being one of them.

Now you may think he is sitting on his ass doing nothing because he wishes to not engage you via a public pissing contest online. The truth of the matter is he is only but one BOD member, he is in the midwest and not on the left coast, he can only do so much as one voice. if this issue is of that much of hot button for all of us, then all of us need to speak up and voice this to ALL the BOD! And not sit back and expect Gary Peek to field the balls you keep hitting in the park aimed at him.

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First, I have no idea if Mr. Peek is sitting on his ass or charging hard to deal with the issue, and just because you have had conversations with him about it doesn't mean he has taken any action at all. Why don't we let him explain that for himself.

Second, his geographic location has no bearing on his ability or inability to act, nor whether his efforts - if any - would be productive. I also don't believe that responding to my questions and comments amounts to him participating in a pissing contest. Gary is a USPA Director and by posting on these forums he opens himself up to challenge, debate, and opinion by others. As a board member, I believe he has an obligation to respond to sincere questions. Cute little sports analogies aside, my "aim" is to solicit a response to my comments about what is truly a serious problem on the part of one of his peers and a leader within MY national organization.

Third, I am not one to "sit back". I have already had several conversations with MY Regional Director on this and other issues you read my comments about here. I am VERY proactive about the things I opine on in these forums. I don't whine Strat, but I do voice my opposition where I believe it can influence things for the better.

I think it's time we butch up and talk about the issues openly and honestly. The sport deserves it.

By the way, MLK was only one voice. So were Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and Abe Lincoln. The list goes on...

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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after which I put the seatbelt through his harness in a place that he could have not reached.



i agree with you that seatbelts are very important. BUT... If i am literally strapped into a plane, i want to be able to unstrap myself in case of any emergency. If the shit hits the fan, i do not want to be dependent on someone else unhooking me.



Good point! I'm glad we are having this discussion.



Anybody got suggestions for alternatives here?

1. Somebody belts you in.
2. You leave it off.
3. ????

Sharing a seat belt with another?



Surely that is a sign of poor design or loading? It's not something that I had thought about previously. I guess because we normally attach the belts to our rig you could always try and get out of the rig.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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after which I put the seatbelt through his harness in a place that he could have not reached.



i agree with you that seatbelts are very important. BUT... If i am literally strapped into a plane, i want to be able to unstrap myself in case of any emergency. If the shit hits the fan, i do not want to be dependent on someone else unhooking me.


Good point! I'm glad we are having this discussion.


Anybody got suggestions for alternatives here?

1. Somebody belts you in.
2. You leave it off.
3. ????

Sharing a seat belt with another?


Surely that is a sign of poor design or loading? It's not something that I had thought about previously. I guess because we normally attach the belts to our rig you could always try and get out of the rig.


There's another use for a hook knife ...as long as you don't f'up and slice a main lift web or leg strap instead of the belt in all the confusion!:o

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I hate to break it to you, but the majority of the jump planes I have been in have seat belts that will not do very much in the event of a plane going down.

If you have belt fastened properly, which is to say it has at least 2 points of contact (lap belt on a bench seat would count), and it is properly tightened then it has a chance of doing it's job.

If you have a belt that has only 1 point of contact and/or is not tight (95+% of jump flights I have been on) then it has very little chance of doing much. At best you will move (or parts of you will move) several feet through the cabin and pivot around the single point of contact. Anyone using a lap belt on a straddle seat, or on the floor will come straight out of it. With the way that the majority of seatbelts are used in most jump planes it does little more than make the takeoff legal with the local authorities.

And while we are at it - all these people that refuse to secure lose objects are also a threat to everyone else on board. Helmets are designed to be worn - so put it on! I know some camera gear is heavy and risks more injury to the camera person in the event of a crash and/or the carmeraman wants to film the take off etc - however in this case secure the camera to yourself using a short lanyard. In the event of a plane crash an unsecured camera becomes a 2lb missile!

Happy jumping

Paul

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I hate to break it to you, but the majority of the jump planes I have been in have seat belts that will not do very much in the event of a plane going down........



I think everyone already knows that. The belts are only to keep the weight distribution reasonably stable while the pilot tries to manage the a/c ...and to keep the first responders from having to "expand" their search area very far from the site. However, belts have been shown to have "worked" (minimized injuries) in actual crash landings.

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I hate to break it to you, but the majority of the jump planes I have been in have seat belts that will not do very much in the event of a plane going down.

If you have belt fastened properly, which is to say it has at least 2 points of contact (lap belt on a bench seat would count), and it is properly tightened then it has a chance of doing it's job.

If you have a belt that has only 1 point of contact and/or is not tight (95+% of jump flights I have been on) then it has very little chance of doing much. At best you will move (or parts of you will move) several feet through the cabin and pivot around the single point of contact. Anyone using a lap belt on a straddle seat, or on the floor will come straight out of it. With the way that the majority of seatbelts are used in most jump planes it does little more than make the takeoff legal with the local authorities.

And while we are at it - all these people that refuse to secure lose objects are also a threat to everyone else on board. Helmets are designed to be worn - so put it on! I know some camera gear is heavy and risks more injury to the camera person in the event of a crash and/or the carmeraman wants to film the take off etc - however in this case secure the camera to yourself using a short lanyard. In the event of a plane crash an unsecured camera becomes a 2lb missile!

Happy jumping

Paul



If memory serves me correctly, there have been several incidents in which accident investigators determined that the use of seat belts minimized injuries and/or accommodated the pilot's ability to deal with the situation at hand.

Even though some movement is still possible with a belt on, the outcome could be dramatically different than if jumpers aren't secured at all. The Perris crash is the perfect example. The plane came down from only a few dozen feet, yet all but 4 people died because they were crushed by their fellow jumpers when the entire load got smashed toward the cockpit on impact. The 4 that lived were in he very back of the plane and ended up on the top of the pile.

Belts do work, even if only in a limited way.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Take it from someone who has been on the bottom-of-the-pile ...it is a miserable place to be!

In my case, the owner-pilot refused to install skydiver-specific seat-belts in his King Air.
During the first part of our forced landing, I was near the bottom of the pile (sitting on bench seat, left-side, with by back to the pilot's set), so I was on the bottom of the pile, suffering a concussion, broken nose, cut forehead, dis-located shoulder, a herniated spinal disc and massive bruising all over my body!
It was five months before I could jump (solo) again, eight months before I could resume doing tandems and a year before I could walk without pain!

I got off light, compared with the guy who ended up on the bottom of the pile. He was in a coma for a month and suffered such serious brain injuries that he will never be able to live alone again!

The bottom line is that even the crudest of seat-belts prevent flailing injuries and dog-piles!

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