Pillow reserve handles & RSL's

[rigging65 0]

Quote

In my opinion, yes, you did screw up. if you are that low, you should pull your reserve without cutting away, just to get more fabric over your head. it worked for clem major in that exact circumstance.

See, my problem with this statement is that if you don't know who Clem is, it might give you the impression that just anyone could get away with this. First off, Clem was lucky this worked. Secondly, he's a very fine canopy pilot and skydiver with a lot of years of "non-normal" skydiving. He's done a lot of things and seen a lot of things in his work that most people have never even thought of. This means he is more apt to be prepared for odd situations...someone with less experience might not be.

Also, the blanket statement that "if you are that low" begs the question, what is low? Certainly there is a limit where simply getting more material over your head is the best you can hope for, but often cutting away and getting your reserve out is safer. One is for "low" the other is not...but there isn't a hard deck that I think you could assign to this choice. Especially given the different rate of response that each person is going to have.

Saying "if you are that low, you should pull your reserve without cutting away" is, IMO, a very dangerous statement that could easily be taken the wrong way.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Ron 7]

Quote

besides, some people disconnect their rsl after they have a good canopy in case thet need to cut away
on the ground due to wind, or a dust devil, or something else unkown.

Is this really common? I have never seen this. But the winds in Perris can really cook, so maybe it is common.

Really...Is it common?

I don't know, I don't use an RSL...But I am interested in this

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[goose491 0]

Quote

Saying "if you are that low, you should pull your reserve without cutting away" is, IMO, a very dangerous statement that could easily be taken the wrong way.

"That Low" refers to Jimbos post... "You are in the pattern and...."

To me, "In the pattern" typically means I'm too low to cutaway... Unless it's an awful LARGE pattern.

What about a one sided release? Failure of a riser (murphys law states if a riser will fail, it will be the one to which the RSL is attached)

Just thought I'd throw that one out.
I don't jump with an RSL

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[wmw999 2,117]

Quote

What about a one sided release? Failure of a riser (murphys law states if a riser will fail, it will be the one to which the RSL is attached)

What made me decide to put the RSL back on my rig was thinking beyond Murphy.

I've heard of very very few one-sided releases. I'd say none, but I'm sure there's one out there. I've heard of more low cutaways by experienced people (I'm just including myself in my thoughts - that's who I"m planning for). Whether or not Murphy says the RSL riser is the one that'll fail, the law of averages says that the chances are much closer to equal.

2 laws of averages point me in the direction of having an RSL. It's cheap "stupid insurance". The potential for the bad outcome (note: no camera jumps, no CRW any more) is far smaller than the potential for a bad decision making it a good precaution. Just based on the sample size across the skydiving population.

And yes, I've proven I can pull reserve handles. Both silver and plastic.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[TheMonkey 0]

i've seen it, and murphy was spot-on with his law, it was the riser the rsl was attached to....presence of mind and reflexes had it chopped quickly, however still a great deal of luck that the main cleared the reserve cleanly....

btw, i don't use one (rsl i mean, not the reserve, i use the reserve when appropriate)....

edit for clarity

---------------------
Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

[rigging65 0]

Last time I checked, most patterns that are taught to jumpers start at 1000 ft. Many patterns for HP canopies start higher than that. And since we're on the issue of HP canopies, the issue of pattern is often boundless. If you fly a carving 360 degree approach on a highly loaded X-braced canopy, you may be starting much higher than 1000 ft.

Given the times/distances that reserves are required to open in, "in the pattern" doesn't mean much to me. Again, I agree that there is a time and a place for just chucking the reserve out there...but where that time and place is is a bit more complicated than just "when you're low".

As for a one sided release. If your cables are trimmed "properly" this should basically be impossible. The RSL-side cable should be longer than the non-RSL-side. Thus if the non-RSL-side cable hangs up, you can't get the RSL side to release by just tugging on the pillow and you keep both risers intact. At least then you get the choice of what happens next.

In regards to riser breakage, with the advent of super-mini risers there are almost no failures anymore. And certainly, if there are any failures out there, there are only a very few. Can anyone confirm properly serviced super-mini risers that have failed in the field?

What all this means is that if you're gear is set up right and maintained at all, you shouldn't ever run into a situation where the RSL misfires. It's just stacking the deck in your favor. Odds show that RSLs save, if you don't want to use one, that's fine. But stand up and say that you're basing your choice off emotions and feelings, not facts, because the numbers support the RSL as a life saver.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[mjosparky 3]

As I have said before, we all have choices. Your choice is not to use an RSL. But to say you don't use one because they kill people is ludicrous. Every piece of gear you exit the plane with has at some time caused the death of someone. The RSL, in its various forms, has saved countless lives and will continue to do so long after you and I are gone. So continue to jump without the use of an RSL because that is your choice, but don't say it is because it kills people.
For the record, I too jump without an RSL for my own reasons.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Is this really common? I have never seen this. But the winds in Perris can really cook, so maybe it is common.

Really...Is it common?

AFAIK only on tandems. Most sport jumpers don't bother.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 7]

Quote

But to say you don't use one
because they kill people is ludicrous.

Its not ludicrous...it is a FACT. Now the chances of it killing you is VERY low...But it has happened.

Quote

Every piece of gear you exit the plane with has at some time caused
the death of someone.

This is why I choose to not jump with an RSL, or a Skyboard, or a tube...ect. I limit my chances of a gear problem and rely more on myself.

That is not ludicrous...Its a personal choice made from faith in myself, and a distrust of ANY piece of equipment that when working and used correctly CAN cause a problem.

We are clearly not going to agree...which is fine.

But why do you not wear one?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 3]

I do testing and jump under a wide variety of circumstances and things are less hectic without one.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[grasshopper 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

besides, some people disconnect their rsl after they have a good canopy in case thet need to cut away
on the ground due to wind, or a dust devil, or something else unkown.

Is this really common? I have never seen this. But the winds in Perris can really cook, so maybe it is common.

Really...Is it common?

I don't know, I don't use an RSL...But I am interested in this

at taft, or what used to be air adventures west, it wasn't that uncommon. I used to always disconnect my rsl after getting a good canopy. when packing for others I would often reconnect rsl shackles left hanging. at elsinore I don't think I've seen anyone disconnect their rsl after opening. so it seems like it could just be one defunct dz where it was common.

________________________________________________________
Abbie drove me to Idaho and all I got was this lousy sigline

[skymedic 0]

I tend to disconnect my RSL after every canopy deployment. unless I am jumping at WFFC, where I leave it on..in case of a low canopy collision and low cutaway...

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[Ron 7]

Quote

I tend to disconnect my RSL after every canopy deployment.

Why disconnect it?

The recent fatality at the WFFC the guy cut away at 500-600 feet. The RSL will not work if its taken off.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[hookitt 0]

You argue for the sake of arguing.

The WFFC Incident could have came out different had an RSL been used. I read it, he tried to deal with a malfunction for too long.

It's common Practice among many people once it's determined a good canopy is overhead. Tandems do it regularily and it's common at windy dropzones as well. If a sport jumper is some what of a spaz and starts to get drug across the ground, he can cut away with out popping the reserve container open.

Tandems, don't always get the luxury of a catcher and they have their hands full so it's not always possible to collapse the canopy on their own.

This next paragraph should be reserved for the comment about "what if" you get in a collision at 700 feet or you are too radical under canopy and malfunction an open parachute, but I'll insert that paragraph.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Ron 7]

Quote

You argue for the sake of arguing.

No I ask questions to find out why people do things...they might not know why they do something...People in this sport need to think for themselves, not just do what Bob did.

He said he disconects it....Except at the WFFC.

Well if the WFFC guy had an RSL he might have been alive still. (of course if he had maintained altitude awareness he might be fine as well).

So my question is this:

If you have an RSL to help you incase you are in a situation where you need a REALLY quick reserve to deploy...Such as in a low cutaway...or a low collision (Both of which have been discussed as reasons on this thread). The low cutaway you might be ok...But if you open just fine, disconnect your RSL THEN have a collision...It will do you no good.

So why disconnect it? It would prevent it from helping you when some jackass hits you while you are under 1,000 feet.

Quote

Tandems, don't always get the luxury of a catcher and they have their hands full so it's not always possible
to collapse the canopy on their own.

Were not talking tandems here.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 3]

You argue for the sake of arguing.

Amen!

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[sundevil777 93]

I'm with you on this, Ron.

If you are going to use an RSL, I think it should be the rare circumstance that you release it before landing.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Ron 7]

Quote

You argue for the sake of arguing.

Amen!

No, I ask people questions to see why they do things.

I hate it when people make gear choices based of what "they were told to do".

If a person makes a claim on something...I ask them why?

In this case an RSL could save you from a low cutaway due to a collision...But he said he takes it off under canopy (Except at the WFFC where he could get into a collision...I have seen collisions at cessna DZ...So this logic is "fuzzy" at best.) But then you are taking the RSL out of play when you would need it most....If you have a regular mal, you have some time to deal with it. A collison you have no time.

I like people to be able to explain WHY they choose gear options...It shows that they have a grasp on the situation, and are not acting like a parrot just doing what others do.

This sports risks are to high not to have REASONS why you do things.

If you don't agree, Im sorry...But I also don't care what you think.

Keep being a parrot, and letting others be one if you like.

I will call them all on the carpet...If they can give me the reasons they choose what they choose...And show that they have thought about it. Then I leave it alone.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 3]

Give me one good reason you don't wear an RSL. Your last one doesn't hold water. I could not find one case where proper procedures were followed and an RSL resulted in death.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Ron 7]

Quote

Give me one good reason you don't wear an RSL. Your last one doesn't hold water. I could not find one case
where proper procedures were followed and an RSL resulted in death.
Sparky

One

Quote

3/30/2001 Opelika, AL
Description: Due to a hard opening, this jumper broke one of the D lines on his canopy, a 230 Rascal. it went into a spin, so he cut it away. The rapid deployment of the reserve via the RSL resulted in his capturing the reserve pilot chute on his right arm. One report indicates the reserve lines also entangled with his neck. The reserve never cleared the freebag. He was found dead at the scene. A second report from someone involved with the investigation reports that the RSL had nothing to do with it; I await further details.

Lessons: RSL's are a mixed blessing. For novice jumpers, they provide insurance against failure to pull the reserve
after a cutaway, a relatively frequent occurrence in the pre-CYPRES past. This incident may illustrate the downside of an RSL.

Two

Quote

7/12/2000 Elsinore, CA
The student ( training under the Navy's equivalent of AFF) deployed his main normally at around 4500 feet. During the main deployment the RSL somehow deployed his reserve which then entangled in the main. Someone supposedly had seen that his main was square and apparently flyable while the reserve was completely fouled and entangled in
his main lines. No one directly witnessed the incident while the student was between 4000 and 2500 feet.
Somewhere during that interval the student apparently cutaway his main which then collapsed and remained
entangled with his fouled reserve. It was believed that if he had not cutaway, he may have been able to land relatively
safely on his main.

The reserve was apparently NOT deployed by his CYPRES: the preliminary examination revealed a kink in the reserve ripcord where the RSL must have pulled against it while it was still under tension from the closing loop.

Three

Quote

9/22/2001 Picton, NSW, Australia
Description: After a camera jump, this jumper experienced spinning line twists on his Stilleto 135. He was unable to clear them and cutaway at perhaps 1800'. His reserve (an Airforce 120) opened via RSL, though reserve handle
was also pulled roughly simultaneously slider-up with line twists, and he impacted in a spin still trying to kick out of the twists. The reserve was very highly loaded, at 1.7 lb/ft^2. Video review of the incident shows that the deceased may have been kicking the wrong direction to get the reserve to untwist, and was not observed to be pulling the risers apart to aid the untwisting.

Lessons: There is some reason to believe that pausing briefly after cutting away from a seriously spinning
malfunction can aid in reserve deployment. However, pausing also eats up valuable altitude, which is also an
increased risk. An RSL removes your choice in this matter, but does insure a rapid deployment after a low cutaway.

Four

Quote

1/30/1997 Taupo, New Zealand
Description: [This report is for the JM. There is an identical report for the student.] After cutting away from a malfunction, it appears one riser hung up, while the side with the RSL released, causing the reserve to deploy between the remaining riser. This riser then separated, and the main ending up choking off the reserve. The pair descended on the partially inflated main which was caught on the wholly uninflated reserve.

Five
Not an RSL kill, but a result of an unstable reserve pull....Which is what can happen with an RSL.

Quote

3/13/1999 Lake Wales, FL
Description: After a four way jump, the deceased suffered a violently spinning malfunction on his Startrac 2 main canopy, which he cutaway from at a low altitude. While unstable, at about 800-900 ft, he deployed his reserve. It (a Swift) opened into into serious line twists, potentially due to his unstable attitude during reserve deployment. He landed extremely hard under a partially-inflated reserve. The reserve was found to still have about 5 line twists.
Reportedly, the risers were tangled around his throat, perhaps strangling him during decent. He weighed about 215 lbs and was jumping a Racer with a Pull-out main deployment system. He had been involved in the sport for 35 years.

Lessons: Perhaps a more rapid reaction to the situation would have given time to resolve the line twists on the reserve. This may be an example of when taking a second or two to get stable after cutting away might have made a difference.

Six
Not an RSL kill, but again reserve pulled before stable.

Quote

5/27/1998 Headcorn, UK
Description: Jumper dispatched a load of static lines students from 2000. After stowing the deployment sleeve,
he followed the last student out. He experienced a spinning malfunction of his main (a Stilleto 120, unknown loading), which was cutaway. A reserve pull followed while he was unstable and back-to-earth. The reserve pilot chute entangled with his feet, and he fought this until impact..

There's Four that an RSL was involved that killed Five people.

And two where taking a second might have helped...

Questions?

Ron

Edit to add two more:

Quote

7/4/2000 Lake Wales, FL

Description: It appears this jumper had a spinning main malfunction, from which he cutaway. He may have entangled with the reserve, which was deployed with the RSL, probably while he was on his back or in another suboptimal body position. He was found after impact with reserve lines clutched in both hands. He was apparently visiting from the UK, and had just gotten off student status, following an AFF progression.

Lessons: The RSL may very well have contributed to this fatality.

***6/22/1997 Umatilla, Florida
Description: At the end of a normal tandem skydiver, the student pulled the ripcord at about 5500 feet. The left main riser broke, which in turn activated the reserve static line lanyard (RSL). The RSL immediately pulled the reserve ripcord cables while the right-hand main riser was still attached. The reserve pilot chute and free-bag cleared, but the reserve canopy entangled with the spinning main.
[/quote

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 3]

No questions. Just some observations.
One
People who conducted the investigation stated the RSL was not involved.
Two
I was there that day and the Navy personnel took the gear and an investigation was not conducted by a civilian rigger. All there is is speculation.
Three
If the reserve handle was pulled at the same time what does this one prove?
Four
That was a riser release problem not an RSL problem.
Five & Six
Have nothing to do with RSL's, why are they listed?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 3]

Ron,
I keep asking you for one good reason. You are too busy arguing to realize you have the one good reason. "You don't want to wear one". You are all grown up, that is the only reason you need.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Ron 7]

Quote

One
People who conducted the investigation stated the RSL was not involved.

Quote

The rapid deployment of the reserve via the RSL
resulted in his capturing the reserve pilot chute on his right arm.

One person said it was not...several did say it was...And I know of this accident very well. I have jumped at this DZ, and several of these jumpers used to go to mine.

Quote

Two
I was there that day and the Navy personnel took the gear and an investigation was not conducted by a civilian rigger. All there is is speculation.

Are you saying the military lied? Just becasue a civilian rigger didn't look at it does not mean they were wrong...But since you were there if you have more info let me know....But it sounds like a rigging error that fired the reserve by the RSL to me....No RSL not a problem. But then again a good gear check or the proper gear would have fixed this as well. Go back to my theory about if you don't need it, and it can cause problems...don't take it. More gear is more possible problems...You know this you test jump stuff.

Quote

The reserve was apparently NOT deployed by his CYPRES: the preliminary examination revealed a kink in the reserve ripcord where the RSL must have pulled against it while it was still under tension from the closing loop.

Quote

Three
If the reserve handle was pulled at the same time what does this one prove?

Quote

His reserve (an Airforce 120) opened via RSL, though reserve handle was also pulled roughly simultaneously

Pulled by the RSL. It even said so. Just because the guy also pulled does not take away the fact that the RSL DID pull. People always say that the RSL pulls faster than you can...So maybe that extra second would have made the difference....But we don't know.

What we do know is.

Quote

Lessons: There is some reason to believe that pausing briefly after cutting away from a seriously spinning malfunction can aid in reserve deployment. An RSL removes your choice in this matter, but does insure a rapid deployment after a low cutaway.

Quote

Four That was a riser release problem not an RSL problem.

Without the RSL the reserve would not have been deployed until the handle was pulled...In this case it happend automaticly...which killed 2 people.

Quote

Five & Six
Have nothing to do with RSL's, why are they listed?

To show two more deaths that they would have benefited by getting stable first.

Quote

This may be an example of when taking a second or two to get stable after cutting away might have made a difference.

And

Quote

Lessons: There is some reason to believe that pausing briefly after cutting away from a seriously spinning malfunction can aid in reserve deployment. An RSL removes your choice in this matter

There is the reason I don't jump an RSL.

I don't try to talk people out of them...I try to educate them to the pro's AND THE CONS of an RSL and let them think about it and make a personal choice with all the info good and bad

These are some situations were RSL were directly involved, or a situation that an RSL can cause resulted in the deaths of jumpers. Now in 4 of them, if you took the RSL away they might have lived.

In 4 of them they did NOTHING wrong and died.

Now every person that gets saved by an RSL did something wrong that put them in that place. (With the possible exception of a low collision...I agree they can be avoided, but at times some jackass is going to screw up and take someone with him.)

So we have 4 people that died due to an RSL...
And then we have some people that were saved by an RSL when they did something stupid that they should have handled better.

I put my faith in my procedures, not in cool toys that HAVE caused problems.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 3]

Yes, you do argue just to argue. But ain't it great., What a country.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 3]

So we have 4 people that died due to an RSL...
And then we have some people that were saved by an RSL when they did something stupid that they should have handled better.

No, we have 4 people you said died due to an RSL. Read carefully, the facts don't support that conclution.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals