Learning to Sit.

[Jabeln79 0]

Now that i have my own rig i am starting to learn to freefly. So i am starting out with a sit.. My problem is that i am laying on my back more that sitting. My legs are up to high and i cant bring htem down.. I have a very baggy shirt on so that should give me enough drag t keep my arms up. I think that my problem is that i am not use to being in a vertical positon and mentally keep my self from pushing my feet down.. I almost had the right postion on one sit but as soon as my legs went down i thought iwas going to fall over the top.. so i let up a little i have been doing 2 ways with a very experienced freeflier and he is running out of ideas on why my legs are stayin so far up.. , any advice..
blue skies
joe.

[PhreeZone 14]

Try this... Cross your feet and sit Indian style. What this does is puts all the weight of your legs out in front and that will tip you forward. Push way back with the arms at first to maintain the sit. After getting used to being vertical and the decreased freefall time you can uncross your feet, but keep them tucked in. This position is called vRW stable. (Check out Pat Works site for a pic) It should always be your recovery position if you feel like you are about to lose your sit. From vRW stable, its just a matter of applying more pressure with the feet until you can get the feet out in front. The pressure should be the same that is used to get up out of an office chair or the like.....
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[174fps 1]

I had the same problem, then I went to Lost Prairie, got 2 coach jumps from
Steuey(SP) from Monkey Claw, concentrate on the hips, get your hips under your
shoulders and the feet will drop, and RELAX, he had me pump alternate feet up and down
while in the sit.
If you stiffen up you will go back onto your back.
174fps

[airann 1]

I have a friend who did the Indian thing and worked for him. He said he was most stable that way. He then went to a sit suit. I dont suggest you do that. It is easier, but you will learn to depend on it.
I have heard nothing but good stuff about Monkey Claw and Stuey, as well.
I learned the old fashioned way, flail and error.
With the flail and error thing, my worst habit that I learned on my own was having my feet too close together. (See my picture by my name? Feet too close together.)
Shoulders over your hips, feet shoulder width apart. Feel the air with your arms and hands. Patience. Small corrections.
In this attachment, (this picture is so old) I am turning a little and trying to come down some.

[airann 1]

On my 100th skydive - whereby I was so excited about the 11 way campfire - I forgot every thing I had learned.
See if you can tell the four seriously bad problems with this picture. (attachement)
feet are too close together
knees, feet, legs too high
feet are not flat
shoulders slightly too far back.
I drove forward one way and turned arouhnd and drove forward the other way during this jump. I thought -hey I am just visiting everyone. Uh, no.... everyone was following me around cause I was base.
The bad news is time flies. The good news is you're the pilot.
--Michael Althsuler

[n2skdvn 0]

i learned that you don't try to act like you are sitting in a chair
act like you are trying to get out of the chair
have chute. will fall.

[AggieDave 6]

In my very limited experience, the biggest problem I had while starting to learn was that I wasn't putting my arms back enough or high enough to get stable. Once I figured that out, I'm able to move them around more.
AggieDave '02
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Blue Skies and Gig'em Ags!
BTHO t.u.

[FallingILweenie 0]

Hey Joe,
WHen I learned, what I was told is to first get comfortable in the "recliner" position (which is essentially on your back). Then just push down with my feet. you'll probably over-rotate a few times and go to your belly...it takes getting used to.
It's important to relax your back or else you'll lose it. also, getting your arms out and back is important, like others have been suggesting.
I know it's cold as fuck right now so you can't do this, but something that really helped me was when it warms up jump with a baggy shirt and shorts.
Down at archway there are a bunch of people that you can talk to (especially now that the winter is setting in you can get more personalized instruction) that can help a lot. Jeremy and Audrey are both really good freeflyers. If Chris or Orion are ever there they are great to talk to as well but i haven't seen either of them in over a month. I'm not on any level resembling them but i'll help you with what i can when you see me down there (late jan. will probably be the next time).
Marc is going through the same thing...he's been working at it and he's getting better. The thing to remember is that it does take a little time and just don't lose your patience with it.
blue skies
Tomas

[FallingMarc 0]

Yes... I'm having pretty much the same trouble, complicated by my tendency to spin when I do get sat up... what's helped me the most is realizing that it's not like flying on your belly, where you can just arch your back and everything will kind of fall into place. You have to actually push down on the wind with your legs in a sit. Whenever I'm sitting and forget to do that, I flip up onto my back again. Like Tomas said though, it just takes some time. It's just starting to make sense to me now, and I've been trying for a month...
Of course, I'm not the quickest at learning this stuff... I spun on my belly for 3 or 4 jumps before I figured out how to hold a heading there too... Again though, that illustrates the "not giving up" thing... at that point I never thought I'd be up there turning points on a 7 way either, but Sunday was a good day...
Marc

[Canuck 0]

I've been reading these forums for 2 years, I guess it's time to make my first post. Some of the advice I'm reading here I agree with, some I don't. Here's my advice for what it's worth. Sit flying is like any other type of flying - it takes muscle memory. When I work with students on basic body position, I get them to do "wall sits" (squating position with your back flat up against a wall). A real common problem with beginning sit fliers is that they think it's all about being relaxed. It is, but you need to be agressive too. Without making a concious effort to keep your feet under you, you're going to end up on your back, feet high. Learning the position actually sitting in a chair means you don't have to push down with your legs, and you can be sure what you do on the ground you will do in the air.
As far as the advice goes to keep your arms way back, I have to disagree. It's a bad habit to get into. In a real stable sit position, your arms should be in view of your peripheral vision. If they're not, you are using them to compensate for bad body position somewhere else. As a side note, when you start learning to "drive" your body forward in a sit, don't rely on your arms then either. It's all in getting the hips forward - kinda like arching on your belly if you remember how to do that.
Keep your head up, relax, breath, and enjoy the view. Welcome to the dark side.
Canuck

[AggieDave 6]

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As far as the advice goes to keep your arms way back, I have to disagree. It's a bad habit to get into.

I wouldn't doubt that I have really bad habits, since I have just now started to get coached by people. I learned how to sit/stand and do a couple transitions by trying and seeing them on videos. At this point I was basically the freeflying group at my previous DZ. Although I'm jumping somewhere else now and learning from other freefliers. It's amazing how fast you learn if you even just have someone else to ask questions to.
AggieDave '02
-------------
Blue Skies and Gig'em Ags!
BTHO t.u.

[Zennie 0]

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I guess it's time to make my first post

Cyber beer!

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As a side note, when you start learning to "drive" your body forward in a sit, don't rely on your arms then either. It's all in getting the hips forward

In addition to hips, feet make a huge difference as well. I had "lazy" feet so I was negating a lot of the forward drive I was trying to get via the hips. One of my coaches noticed this and suggested that I point the toes down to go forward & up to go back -- kinda like a gas pedal on a car.
This dramatically helped my proximity and also allows me to do more fine adjustments as I get closer.
"Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control. Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper."

[freeflyguy 0]

Nice post Canuck
I'll add this. He is right in that it is not all relax. In a sit anyway. On your head is different.
A very important 'angle' ,to learn with, is make sure that regardless, you keep 90 degrees between your thighs and back. A lot of the reason people put their arms back is because they are leaning forward. Look at pictures of people with arms back. They will almost always be leaning forward. If you lean forward, you drive backwards, putting your arms back stops that. So it is bad habit. If you are square in the back and thighs, you will have a better chance of falling straight down. Then push arms back to go a little forward, and forward to drive back. As you get better, you can use your torso to do the same thing.
It is tough to teach. But I remember when I was learning. I would keep that rigid 90 degree. If I went on to my back, I would pull my calves and feet up to my butt. That seemed to help rock me back forward, then start pushing feet back down. If you are a slow faller, you would start pushing your thighs down, to make a greater angle on your torso and thighs. You can fly that anywhere up to a stand. Keep your torso verticle though, because you will drive in the direction opposite of where you are leaning.
Tear it up!
j

[Geoff 0]

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make sure that regardless, you keep 90 degrees between your thighs and back.

Do you really mean that? - I vary fall rate by moving between a sit and a stand, so for a fast fall, I have close to 180 degrees between thighs and back (legs nearly straight down).
How do you regulate fall rate otherwise?
I'm intrigued.
Geoff

[freeflyguy 0]

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Do you really mean that?

Ya, but mostly for learning. You seem to be beyond the initial stage. I think maybe I could have said it better if I said, "never less than 90". You are right. If you push it out, that is the way to vary your speed. But to learn it is easier to put a solid number, or position in your mind.. It is easier with less variables, or things to think about adjusting.
Look at Ann's pictures on the first page of this post. You can see she is forward, arms back, and less than the 90. She may be falling straight down, but it is because of all the compensation she is doing for leaning forward. (I don't mean to pick on you Ann :) )
When I was learning to fly on my head, I spent many a jump in a sit/stand. That is, I would get blown off my head, then just go to a stand, to try and keep up with the others on the jump. That is a valuable skill.

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How do you regulate fall rate otherwise?

If you keep everything else the same, raise your arms straight up. They catch a lot of wind too. I am not sure how well that works in a sit. But if you are allready in a stand and need more speed. That works.
yep yep yep.
j

[PhreeZone 14]

Arms, Take your arms up more to go faster and apply more force downward with them to slow down more. The Sit and stand is good for adjusting to big differences, but use the arms when you are in close and are trying for that totem and don't want to slam into the other person.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[airann 1]

Canuck, good going- I like the way you think.
Freefallguy is RIGHT ON, (this is a good thread).
Here you go- instead of looking at old ass pictures of me for examples -check my friends in this one.
It might be a better example of what we are talking about, regarding having your shoulders over your hips. They are about to -or have just done- a dock.
Also- GEAR -in this example picture is -another issue. His flap is wide open. This can happen in freeflying easy. Understand that I sit with this one person at 170 to 200mph. That is seriously hauling ass. (This is a large person in a sit.)
AND FALL RATE, I jump with many, if I cant keep up I am OUT. I can adjust by watching. I can tell whats up before it happens. He stands- I stand. for example- I dont wait till the fall rate changes, I stand and stay with him. Faster or Slower. You cant be base every single time, so you have to have a diversified fall rate to jump with the masses.
Back to gear, -At any mph shyt can fly open much less 170 . Check your stuff really well, especially your older rigs. Slow down before you open, you are going faster than belly flying.
Its basically this, get your suggestions on form here but go and feel it. See what is right for your body. Its all about what works and is comfortable.
AirAnn

BAWAHHH! and click on Hey Jude!

[freeflyguy 0]

I thought I might reply to that last picture Ann sent. It has some good stuff to learn.
First the guy in the back, with the multi color jumpsuit, He is doing great. You can tell he has more experience. Pretty square in the body, lower legs pointing straight down. His arms are back a bit, and maybe his torso, but that is likely only to drive forward, to either dock, or catch the other guy, who may have a bit of a backslide. Looks good.
The guy in the foreground, blue and white gives you some good info too. You see, arms back, bent slightly forward, and lower legs back. Although he is only a little less than 90 at the torso and thigh. He is probably falling straight down, or a little backslide. Look at what he might change.
First, his lower legs. Notice how they are bent back more than the guy in front of him. Those legs will cause a bit of backslide, but mostly, since they are below his hanging point, will cause him to rock forward. That is why he can have almost 90 degrees on his torso, and thigh, but that "L" shape is rocked forward. That also tells you, if you are on your back, pull your legs up to your butt, and it will help rock you foward, similar to the Indian thing somebody else mentioned. Normally, his legs should be pointed straight down, or parallel to the guy across from him.
Then his torso. His arms are back to compensate for bending a bit foward. If he moved his head and back backwards a bit, his arms would automatically come forward. That and move his legs apart a bit, and he is good.
Lots of stuff to think about. That is why a coach jump is nice. Someone can see what you are doing. Paying for them is for the birds though.
j

[Jabeln79 0]

Thanks everyone for all your help ive got alot of good advice hear.. I think it will be most helpful for me ill try it this weekend and let you know if it helps me out..