Need help deciding what direction to go for next video camera

[The111 0]

I've always hated posts like these, so it's about time that I make one myself.
Help! I can't decide what camera to buy next!

I'm still flying a 5 year old CX100. I am actually ok with almost everything about it, except that it only shoots interlaced. I know the Sony handycams these days aren't supporting Hypeye as much, and it's not even easy to find out which ones do and don't, which is a big part of the reason for this post.

My requirements:

1) 1080p (this is stupid easy with pretty much any option on the table)
2) optical zoom and/or accepting of external lens (hard with most action cams)
3) able to work with a hypeye or something like it (hard with almost everything?)
4) hardware controls/display for playback (hard with some action cams?)

I'm not sure there's any easy solution out there that works with all 4. I can possibly give up on #3 and #4, but the first two are hard requirements. I've considered going the action cam route, but from what I've seen they don't meet req #2 above, nor #4 usually. But sticking with the old school handycam solution, I am not sure that anything in Sony's current lineup even works with Hypeye anymore. Anybody know if the PJ670 does?

Thanks!

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[verdi 2]

if you can live without 3 maybe getting a Sony A6000 would be a nice option... great video quality, free choice of lens, display ...

[DSE 3]

why 1080 and not 4K?

4K is hitting faster than HD did by roughly 4x. In 2016, it'll be the standard across the board for a person of your background and skill.

If you'll be sticking with the camera for a while (seems like that's your MO) why not be well inside the cutting edge vs purchasing "outdated?"

[The111 0]

DSE

why 1080 and not 4K?

No joke, as I typed out 1080p, I was anticipating you saying this.

1080p is minimum bound. I'd happily accept more (who wouldn't) from a package that fits all my other requirements and is still affordable.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[tozer 0]

Hey mate.
tough question that I have been wrestling over for a few years now as well, I completely get where you are coming from. I think there is possibly too much choice out there now but most options don't have every box ticked as you mentioned.
I did a shitload of jumps using the CX100 until it just didn’t cut it for quality anymore against the GoPro world but they have their issues as well.
So right now I am using predominantly an AX100 4K Sony handycam. It’s pretty big and cumbersome but I do agree with DSE and would prefer to only shoot in 4K these days when possible. I find it really is light years ahead of 1080 in sharpness & and color and there is so much more I can do with it later, even pulling a 12MP still from the screen grab if I’m not running DSLR and want a half decent still image…
Pros of this camera: The quality and ease of use and it has a kickarse Steady shot without the rather annoying “Boss” system that kind of makes it look fake (in my opinion). To add to that it works with a Hypeye for record, although I do need to pull the viewfinder out to activate standby and hit the hypeye button to record. This works fine and after over 100 jumps with this camera, seamless.
Another unexpected bonus was that I used this camera during HALO WS flights from 30,000 feet and it was -50 Deg Celsius. All I had covering it was a homemade neoprene cover and it performed like a rock star with around 2 more hours of battery left after that jump!
Cons: A very large lens attachment point, I don’t know where you would get a lens to fit and if you did would it look crap? I don’t use one. I think it would be the equivalent to a .55 lens by the old scale (approx.), so it’s not super wide but I prefer that.
Its size: it’s pretty big and heavy easily 2 x times a CX100, perhaps more. Think old school H1-8 size?
Price, it is around $2000.. I think that is cheap as I used to spend 3-4K back in the day for a good DV camera, but in a world of disposable cameras…
Personally I LOVE this camera.. Most of my jumps are doing proper outside WS camera and I want more than an Actioncam can give me and this thing produces amazing results, certainly worth the size, weight and cost.

For less serious stuff or simply a backup to the big camera I prefer the new Sony X1000V Action Cam. Having said that, I only just started using it and previous used the AS100.
Once again, 4K. The quality is amazing from an Action camera in my view, its only downside is the lack of steadyshot in the 4K mode which would have given it the trump card over GoPro if you ask me.. but I’m sure there are highly technical reasons that this couldn’t happen.
In 4K mode it offers jaw dropping quality but only 170deg POV and no Steady shot.
In 1080 it does offer a really good steady shot mode and 120 POV which I feel is far superior to GoPro in 1080. I’ve filmed both side by side and the GoPro was unwatchable compared to the Sony in steady shot mode.

Anyway, my 2 bobs worth. Certainly not the solution to your problem but I haven’t found it myself really to be honest. Apart from the additional lens situation the AX100 cuts the mustard and some… if you are cool with the size… If you find the answer I’m keen to hear myself though! 
I have heard of the smaller version of the AX100 4K camera? But I’ve also heard that a Hypeye won’t work, don’t know….

[The111 0]

Thanks all for the advice. I've been giving it a lot of thought and think the easiest requirement to give up might be the Hypeye. If I do that then I can just pick up the latest and greatest Sony like I've always done in the past.

I think my new jump flow will just be to start recording at 10k when I put the helmet on, and then after I land I can just use the in camera editing to split the file just before exit and trash the extra footage. This was easy enough to do on my CX100, I assume and hope the feature still exists in the newest Sony cams. Anybody know? This way I can then still have immediately available debrief footage that doesn't have a bunch of garbage preceding it.

In a way this could be a relief. Hypeye/cameye has always been the weak link in my setup. One extra thing that can go wrong or fail on jumprun (it's happened to me at the worst time before), and one thing I have to update physically when installing a new camera in a new location on the helmet, and one thing I have to always consider when buying new cams. Losing that requirement could be very freeing... never again will I be reaching for the cameye button while hanging on the step, or worse in freefall... both quite awkward in a wingsuit.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Skwrl 56]

DSE

why 1080 and not 4K?

4K is hitting faster than HD did by roughly 4x. In 2016, it'll be the standard across the board for a person of your background and skill.

If you'll be sticking with the camera for a while (seems like that's your MO) why not be well inside the cutting edge vs purchasing "outdated?"

If he had said 4K, what would your recommendation have been?

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[kawisixer01 0]

Another point worth mentioning is sound quality. Some vidiots are showing up for tandem work with action cams, and the main complaint I hear from the editing bay is complaints about sound quality, especially when it comes to in-plane interaction with the customer.
I'm still clinging to my cx-110 as well. I can't picture being able to keep my clips as clean and short without a hypeye, so therefore switching away would load the editing bay with more cut work. Having a remote start/stop button that provides visual feedback is still too important to me to give up.

[roostnureye 2]

kawisixer01

Another point worth mentioning is sound quality. Some vidiots are showing up for tandem work with action cams, and the main complaint I hear from the editing bay is complaints about sound quality, especially when it comes to in-plane interaction with the customer.
I'm still clinging to my cx-110 as well. I can't picture being able to keep my clips as clean and short without a hypeye, so therefore switching away would load the editing bay with more cut work. Having a remote start/stop button that provides visual feedback is still too important to me to give up.

the Sony as100v actually has really good sound compared to most other action cams.
I use a sena 20s intercom and you can clearly hear the conversation in my videos.
the speaker is on the inside of my helmet and the cam is on the outside of a full face g3 with visor closed.

Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

[Skydivesg 6]

I started using the Sony AS100 this year and have specifically asked the editors at 2 different DZs (one which is quite large with lot's of tandem videos) to compare the audio.

Audio quality is very important to me. I wanted to compare the audio of my CX 150 with that of the AS100. Both editors also compared it to the Hero 4.

With the AS100 in the water proof case the audio was at least as good and maybe even a touch better than the CX 150 with no case. It was hands down better than the GoPro even with the GoPro out of it's case and the AS100 still inside the case.

When I took the AS100 out of the case for the in airplane stuff it sounded amazing. It was way better than either the CX 150 and Go Pro 4.

I've never heard any GoPro audio that doesn't sound muddy. It seems they really don't care about audio.

And the editor at the large DZ said the footage looked better and more stable than the Hero 4.

I'm really happy with it. And I mounted it in away to have easy access of the record button and see the red indicator light even in free fall.

I couldn't be happier with the Sony AS 100. Anyone want to buy my (in excellent shape) CX 150?

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[roostnureye 2]

Skydivesg

I started using the Sony AS100 this year and have specifically asked the editors at 2 different DZs (one which is quite large with lot's of tandem videos) to compare the audio.

Audio quality is very important to me. I wanted to compare the audio of my CX 150 with that of the AS100. Both editors also compared it to the Hero 4.

With the AS100 in the water proof case the audio was at least as good and maybe even a touch better than the CX 150 with no case. It was hands down better than the GoPro even with the GoPro out of it's case and the AS100 still inside the case.

When I took the AS100 out of the case for the in airplane stuff it sounded amazing. It was way better than either the CX 150 and Go Pro 4.

I've never heard any GoPro audio that doesn't sound muddy. It seems they really don't care about audio.

And the editor at the large DZ said the footage looked better and more stable than the Hero 4.

I'm really happy with it. And I mounted it in away to have easy access of the record button and see the red indicator light even in free fall.

I couldn't be happier with the Sony AS 100. Anyone want to buy my (in excellent shape) CX 150?

I made a $10 light relay for mine.
it has an on/off switch and a photocell that sits on top of the indicator light on the top of the camera.
it also has a red led for a status indicator.
super easy to make.
I found the diagram on here, it weighs next to nothing and fits between the camera and visor when side mounted

Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

[DSE 3]

For someone of Matt's calibre, I'd likely suggest the Blackmagic Design 4K Micro. It's not shipping just yet; having had a prototype, it's simply incredible.

Sony's offerings are slim outside of the 1000V in 4K (for the skydiving world), at least right now. No one is doing an awesome job of 4K in a small/POV package just yet.

[The111 0]

DSE

For someone of Matt's calibre, I'd likely suggest the Blackmagic Design 4K Micro. It's not shipping just yet; having had a prototype, it's simply incredible.

Sony's offerings are slim outside of the 1000V in 4K (for the skydiving world), at least right now. No one is doing an awesome job of 4K in a small/POV package just yet.

Thanks Spot. That one looks interesting, has a unique form factor.

What about Sony AX33? It has BOSS which I hear is good for freefall...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[DSE 3]

The AX 33 is a terrific little camera, and has the same imager/same series imager as the F1000.

The projector aspect is a little silly IMO, but it is a very nice overall camera.

[The111 0]

DSE

The projector aspect is a little silly IMO, but it is a very nice overall camera.

Agreed on the projector part, I would opt out of that if I could. :-)

Thanks, I think I may end up going with that one, if not the black magic one you suggested.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Skwrl 56]

Black Magic is my next buy, personally. I'm damned impressed, although I haven't held one in my hands yet.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[DSE 3]

Talk to me more (offline) before you go down that road... lots to share after this past week.

It is an AMAZING piece of gear.
For those that haven't seen it...
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmicrocinemacamera

It is NOT a GoPro replacement, not by any stretch. It's weighty and awkward to mount on most helmet systems. It's also a fair amount of work in post. But...at the price of body/lens (third party), it's a sweet deal.

[misato 0]

DSE, in keeping in with that line of thought . . .

It is frustrating to think how the Black Magic Micro Cinema Camera will NOT do 4K, but that the Black Magic Micro Studio Camera will:
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmicrocinemacamera
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmicrostudiocamera4k
Of course, it is quite a bit more, when you consider the $300 price increase, an the $2K Shogun Atomos needed to complete the setup:
http://www.atomos.com/shogun/

I have liked everything I've seen WRT the Sony AX33 for the price, except the overall weight. Almost twice as heavy as my CX430V (this is the smallest & lightest implementation of BOSS that I am aware of).

Good to know the Sony 4K action cam has no stabilization in 4K mode . . . *sigh*

What is everyone's favorite piece of software to do image stabilization processing in post?

Thanks all,
Slow Dan

[DSE 3]

misato

DSE, in keeping in with that line of thought . . .

It is frustrating to think how the Black Magic Micro Cinema Camera will NOT do 4K, but that the Black Magic Micro Studio Camera will:
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmicrocinemacamera
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmicrostudiocamera4k
Of course, it is quite a bit more, when you consider the $300 price increase, an the $2K Shogun Atomos needed to complete the setup:
http://www.atomos.com/shogun/

I have liked everything I've seen WRT the Sony AX33 for the price, except the overall weight. Almost twice as heavy as my CX430V (this is the smallest & lightest implementation of BOSS that I am aware of).

Good to know the Sony 4K action cam has no stabilization in 4K mode . . . *sigh*

What is everyone's favorite piece of software to do image stabilization processing in post?

Thanks all,
Slow Dan

I already have an Odyessy, so it's a non-thought for me. This camera is for PRO work, not for day to day tandems.
Boris RED is a great tool for post stab, and on the low-cost side, ProDad is a good option

[misato 0]

Great, thanks for that sir.

I need to do some more research on rolling shutter VS global shutter, 8 bit VS 10 bit, 4:2:2 VS 4:2:0, and all that.

The AX33 does indeed seem interesting . . . but if stabilization is not considered (or understood to be a necessary part of the workflow regardless), I wonder what the real side-by-side comparison would go between:

#1 AX33 => XAVC 4K (internal recording, compressed) => ProRes transcode, NLE, & subsequent processing/output => 4K TV display

#2 a6000 => clean HDMI out to Atomos Shogun (1080p @ 60p) ProRes LT => NLE, & subsequent processing/output => 4K TV display

From what I read, the option of ProRes LT is a nice feature of the Atomos VS the Odyessy.
Also, on a 4K display, really nice 1080 looks better than ho-hum compressed 1080 on a typical 1080 display.

-Dan

[DSE 3]

misato

Great, thanks for that sir.

I need to do some more research on rolling shutter VS global shutter, 8 bit VS 10 bit, 4:2:2 VS 4:2:0, and all that.

The AX33 does indeed seem interesting . . . but if stabilization is not considered (or understood to be a necessary part of the workflow regardless), I wonder what the real side-by-side comparison would go between:

#1 AX33 => XAVC 4K (internal recording, compressed) => ProRes transcode, NLE, & subsequent processing/output => 4K TV display

#2 a6000 => clean HDMI out to Atomos Shogun (1080p @ 60p) ProRes LT => NLE, & subsequent processing/output => 4K TV display

From what I read, the option of ProRes LT is a nice feature of the Atomos VS the Odyessy.
Also, on a 4K display, really nice 1080 looks better than ho-hum compressed 1080 on a typical 1080 display.

-Dan

I'm not sure why you'd want to record to ProRes LT? Why bother spending all that money to use a codec that is equal to XAVC-S?

Why transcode to ProRes at all? You'll lose quality and increase filesize.

XAVC is a terrific codec with a broad spectrum of bitrates and color depths. If you're going to be pushing it around much (such as with stabilization) you want as much info as possible.

As far as Atomos vs Convergent Design; CD is a pro company that has been around for 2 decades, building broadcast gear, by broadcast pro's. Their tech and customer support is the gold standard of the industry. Atomos is a good company, but their products lag behind standards and their customer support could certainly use some bolstering, IMO.

I'm not sure what you're referencing as "really nice 1080 vs ho-hum compressed." It's very rare you'd see any kind of end-display of 1080 (or 4K) that isn't deeply compressed.

Global shutter is necessary to avoid jello cam. Currently only available at 24/30p on a few higher grade cameras, and at p60 on some very high grade cameras, the 4/4/4 vs 4/2/2 vs 3/1/1, vs 4/2/0...you might start with my book on "The Full HD." You can find used copies on Amazon or at B&H.

[misato 0]

Thanks DSE,

#1
WRT recording to, or transcoding to ProRes LT, I read this was using a bit-rate of around 100Mbps, but with negligible quality difference than full on ProRes (around 300 Mbps?).
I suppose I just am anticipating that some forthcoming edit work may be on a FCP platform . . .

I have heard that Adobe CC / Premiere now supports XAVC / XAVS.

#2
Good to know about the history for Convergent VS Atomos.
The proprietary recording media requirement of the Odyessy pretty much precludes it from consideration for me. Although, even a Shogun is on the borderline between day-dream and "2-year plan" for me, which means neither are being seriously considered in the short term.

That said, always enjoy staying current on what's out there, and I appreciate the perspective.

#3
I suppose what I meant by "ho-hum compressed HD" was the sort of 1080i broadcast content you see through typical cable TV and satellite providers.

Some may argue that a 4K display wouldn't make that type of programming look any better than a quality 1080p TV would.

However, if you had a PC hooked up, or perhaps a BluRay player, and the source is really high quality 1080 content (with less compression than broadcast), then it is possible (likely?) a 4K display WOULD show more detail than the same quality 1080p TV, despite the original signal being 1080p.

#4
I did some searching for your book:
The Full HD:
http://www.amazon.com/Vaast-The-Full-HDV-Book/dp/0976238128
http://www.adorama.com/VATFHD.html?discontinued=t
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/575348-REG/Vasst_TFHD_Book_The_Full_HD.html

So I will see about that used copy on Amazon.

Also, came across this interesting items:
http://www.adorama.com/VAHDV2.html
&
http://www.amazon.com/Wingsuit-Formations-Douglas-Spotted-Eagle-ebook/dp/B00BNHQ9U4/

Thanks,
Dan

[hubert7 0]

Personally, l love Canon, all them are good for the money

[hubert7 0]

I owed a T3i, if you want to shoot video, The T5i with STM lens has some better features for video than the older T3i. Hope you could find something you like http://thedigitalcamera.net/canon-rebel-t5i-vs-t6i-vs-t6s-whats-the-difference/

[jtiflyer 0]

***

Oddly enough I have been having more shake with the stabilization ON with the ASV100 while shooting 8way.