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BeauRiebe

GoPro Hero4 for professional tandem video?

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BMFin

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Flying underneath someone in freefall is a very bad idea.



Thats BS. I always do it, and there is no reason why it would be a bad idea.

Premature deployment on your main or reserve.
50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

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*insert your mom joke here*



Your momma so fat she sweats grease.....;)
Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

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TheCaptain


Ever given any thought to what would happen if you had a premature opening while you are flying under someone?



Sure I have. I take care of my gear. Sometimes I fly underneath other during a freefly jump (just like everyone else). Tandem jump is no different. Flying underneath is no big deal. I dont really understand where this double standard is coming from.

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BMFin


I dont really understand where this double standard is coming from.



If you take out another jumper, that goes down as two dead jumpers. People think we are crazy and no big deal. We know the risks.

You take out a TI and a paying passenger, all hell will break loose and anyone involved with the DZ including the DZ dog will be sued by the Pax family for wrongful death/negligence.
50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

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BMFin



Sure I have. I take care of my gear. Sometimes I fly underneath other during a freefly jump (just like everyone else). Tandem jump is no different. Flying underneath is no big deal. I dont really understand where this double standard is coming from.


As skydivers we understand and accept the risk in the skydives we make. A tandem student is unaware of the added risk you are subjeciting them to by flying under them. You are risking not only your life and the tandem instructors life but an uninformed passanger that did not sign.up for the added risk
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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TheCaptain


As skydivers we understand and accept the risk in the skydives we make. A tandem student is unaware of the added risk you are subjeciting them to by flying under them. You are risking not only your life and the tandem instructors life but an uninformed passanger that did not sign.up for the added risk



You overestimate the risk involved. Its no where near to be worried about.

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You minimize the extra risk you put the tandem students in. No one is perfect and mistakes happen, what if you get bumped in the plane and your pilot chute becomes slightly exposed? You are adding unnecessary risk to the skydive. Remember the idea of links in a chain of events, you flying underneath a tandem student is a huge link
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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with all this thoughts....

what do you think about the GOPRO INTRO LEVEL for tandem video????

it is "built in" the case and only 3 modes for video
720 50fps
720s 50fps (super view)
1080 25fps

but it cost 130$

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQGWI3geHu8

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BMFin

***
As skydivers we understand and accept the risk in the skydives we make. A tandem student is unaware of the added risk you are subjeciting them to by flying under them. You are risking not only your life and the tandem instructors life but an uninformed passanger that did not sign.up for the added risk



You overestimate the risk involved. Its no where near to be worried about.

I'm probably sharing the view of many on here that (from reading your responses), you really chose the wrong forum to voice your views on the topic of safety. If your profile is correct and you only have 1000 jumps, please understand that there are many more experienced people on here who are voicing concern for an unnecessary risk which we are recognizing.

Flying underneath (or nearly underneath) a tandem at any point in the skydive is definitely a safety issue and wholly unnecessary, especially when you are exposing the pin side of the pack to the relative wind (as while back flying). Keep in mind that nobody who has ever had a premature deployment "planned on it"... and many of those rigs HAD been taken care of properly.. but as mentioned by others on here things can happen, packs can get bumped, and often times the pin doesn't actually pop until deep in freefall (and possibly beneath a tandem). The tandem student didn't sign up for that risk and you can shoot a perfectly acceptable (and, if you are skilled.. amazing) video without that technique. Also, I was surprised to see that you made the choice to fly beneath the tandem so close to deployment. I'm fairly certain you have never witnessed (or experienced) a tandem bag lock scenario as many of us have.. and I can assure you that they will plow through your airspace before you know what is happening (especially if the instructor isn't the fastest with his chop). If you study past incident reports, there have been several injuries and/or fatalities that have much to do with camera flyer antics close to tandem deployment.

I'm not trying to cut you down (even if I disagree with certain aspects of your technique). Chances are you're going to continue doing what you've been doing regardless of what you read here. However, these forums are for learning and sharing.. and helping each other to be safer and better skydivers. If people bring up issues they notice, or offer advice, it is always advisable to consider that they may be speaking from a much more experienced position and their concern may have some merit. Try not to dismiss their concerns so easily. It just may save your (or someone else's) life.
Tan-I, AFF-I, S&TA, Freefall Photographer, Skydive University Coach

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BMFin

I dont really understand where this double standard is coming from.



Basic rule of thumb for how to remember people who've died skydiving:


If you kill yourself, it's sad.

if you kill another skydiver, it's a tragic accident.

if you kill a tandem passenger, you're a fucking asswipe who brings shame to all.
cavete terrae.

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I think you are over estimating the risk involved. In a way it is similar to the debate on whether jumping with a hoodie exposes you to a risk on some kind of entanglement. Some really think so – others dont.

Having experience over 1000 jumps doesnt really make ones analytical skills on asessing the risk involved any better, so I dont think it matters how much jumps someone has as long as they have a reasonable understanding on the enviroment were dealing with. So far you have not provided anything that would make me reconsider my view on this, so Im still going to trust my own judgement on this issue.

However, perhaps you would feel better knowing that I have nowadays more less given up filming tandems and in the future I will mostly doing fun jumping and flying on my back underneath other skydivers that dare to defy the odds of premature deployments. :)

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BMFin

I think you are over estimating the risk involved. In a way it is similar to the debate on whether jumping with a hoodie exposes you to a risk on some kind of entanglement. Some really think so – others dont.

Having experience over 1000 jumps doesnt really make ones analytical skills on asessing the risk involved any better, so I dont think it matters how much jumps someone has as long as they have a reasonable understanding on the enviroment were dealing with. So far you have not provided anything that would make me reconsider my view on this, so Im still going to trust my own judgement on this issue.

However, perhaps you would feel better knowing that I have nowadays more less given up filming tandems and in the future I will mostly doing fun jumping and flying on my back underneath other skydivers that dare to defy the odds of premature deployments. :)



"Overestimating?" How does one overestimate "dead." It's happened before, and that's why it's so concerning.
Agreed, rigs are better at backflying and premies. But experienced skydivers aren't tandems. Experienced skydivers know what to do when they see (and can potentially avoid) premies. Tandems cannot.

Were it not for a promise to never post, I have two premie shots, both of which occurred to very big name, very experienced skydivers on team training jumps.
Both are very scary, oneof them involved injuries great enough to keep someone else from jumping for a month or so.

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BMFin

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"Overestimating?" How does one overestimate "dead."



IMO its exactly this type of irrationality that is often involved in these views.

OK, I'll bite. Explain why you are bulletproof from a premie? Premies have killed and maimed more than one person over the years, even on new, "freefly friendly" rigs. It *can* happen. If it's you and another regular skydiver, no skin off my nose.

But if you harm a tandem in any way, it harms everyone.

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BMFin

So far you have not provided anything that would make me reconsider my view on this, so Im still going to trust my own judgement on this issue.



Oh! Well then! By all means, please tell us how your 1,000 jumps (over 9 years), which is an average of 110 jumps a year.. (not a huge amount for someone in the air with tandems) qualifies you for putting someone else's life at risk.

As mentioned before, this is NOT the forum for voicing your (obviously flawed) views on safety. Tandems are the life of the sport (when it comes to paying for those turbines everyone loves), and everything attached to them is based around safety. Why do you think that the deployment altitude is higher for tandems? Why do you think the parachutes are so much larger and of such a docile planform? Why do you think that the regulations and requirements are that much more stringent? It's because it's NOT JUST ANOTHER SKYDIVE. This is an ongoing issue in the sport, and the reason why incidents are happening which honestly don't need to be happening. As an S&TA, I see too many of these.

And the worst thing? Honestly? Is people who think that their skills, experience, and luck are "above" any possible situation that could endanger others. Those people are the ones that are causing situations that DON'T NEED TO HAPPEN. Because nobody drives to the dropzone expecting to create a situation that impacts their (or someone else's) life.

I'm with Doug. If you want to kill yourself, go for it. If you intend to take out another experienced jumper, then you're a dick.. but it doesn't even come close to the damage you do if a tandem goes in. All we are saying is that if you are going to take that kind of risk (with no thought about the impact of your actions), then maybe it's best that you do indeed stick to fun jumping. You have no place in the air with tandems if you can't even perceive that it's not the same situation as jumping with your buddies. Your fellow fun jumpers signed up for that kind of risk,. The tandem didn't. And there are plenty of ways of going about flying camera without putting the student's life at risk. I've done over 1400 jumps flying camera for tandems, and never needed to fly beneath them to get "the shot". I'm sure you can find plenty of other camera fliers on this forum who will agree.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not trying to cut down your technique (even if I disagree with it), as you will likely continue. However, it is critical that you realize that you CANNOT PREDICT EVERY SITUATION THAT CAN OCCUR. If you take out your buddy, you have to apologize to his family (and friends). If you take out a tandem, YOU HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO THE SPORT.

Unfortunately, that apology rarely holds any weight. Don't let that kind of arrogance ruin the sport for others. You are no less fallible than anyone else in the sky, or anyone else who is reading this forum. You are human, so are we. Keep those screws tight, sir.
Tan-I, AFF-I, S&TA, Freefall Photographer, Skydive University Coach

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DSE



OK, I'll bite. Explain why you are bulletproof from a premie?



No one is "bulletproof". We just seem to have a very different view on how likely this scenario is. There are many things that add risk to a tandem skydive. One example is hand cam. It definetly does add some risk, but most of us nowadays see the level of risk being acceptable.

Now where things get interesting is when someone would give the handcam to the customer. There are many of us that think this would actually be the safer way to operate opposed to the TM using the hand cam. Then again, there are those conservative TM´s that refuse to accept this idea. They think the student has no bisnes operating a hand cam.

This is a perfect example in demonstrating how differently people asses different risks involved in the sport. There are many things that get overlooked in our sport, and there are things that get make people paranoid. Often the logic behind it is not based on a rational risk assesment analysis.

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BMFin

Often the logic behind it is not based on a rational risk assesment analysis.



You're absolutely correct! It's based on blood, pain, suffering and even death. All things you (or any of us) are not immune to. I's say it's time to learn from the experiences of others.
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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We just seem to have a very different view on how likely this scenario is.



If you fly directly below MY tandem, on purpose, you will either promise never to do it again, or you won't be near my tandem again. We can still be friends, but you won't do my video anymore.

Your feeling about how likely it is that you will have a preemie is completely irrelevant. You might, and there is no good reason for you to be there. It's unprofessional, so why do it?

Quote

It definetly does add some risk



On a tandem all reasonable measures should be taken to reduce the risk as close to zero as possible. That is professionalism.

Often people will try to confuse the issue with observations like "what about this or that" Handcam has it's own issues, but so what? You are merely changing the subject away from your need to have your fun. The main point is that it's simply not about you.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I've used my GoPro 2 for every single one of my tandem videos. I'm not a professional but I still think my work lives up to a lot of the work I see from the pros.

I do have a concern regarding GoPro 3 and 3+. A lot of my friends who use them experience them turning off mid jump for no obvious reason, and for me that's reason enough to stick with the GoPro 2. I really hope this problem has been solved on the 4.

And when it comes to flying below tandems - I'd never do it and I wouldn't want another guy doing it when I do tandems. Never. It's just stupid. I'm glad to hear that the one guy in this thread who disagrees is not doing videos anymore.

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gowlerk

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We just seem to have a very different view on how likely this scenario is.



If you fly directly below MY tandem, on purpose, you will either promise never to do it again, or you won't be near my tandem again. We can still be friends, but you won't do my video anymore.

Your feeling about how likely it is that you will have a preemie is completely irrelevant. You might, and there is no good reason for you to be there. It's unprofessional, so why do it?

***It definetly does add some risk



On a tandem all reasonable measures should be taken to reduce the risk as close to zero as possible. That is professionalism.

Often people will try to confuse the issue with observations like "what about this or that" Handcam has it's own issues, but so what? You are merely changing the subject away from your need to have your fun. The main point is that it's simply not about you.

Beautifully put! I absolutely love this response and agree with every part of it! Kudos, sir.

The skydive is about the experience of the tandem. Get the shot but keep it as safe as possible in all aspects. If you want to horse around, save it for the fun jumps with your buddies. Don't put the unsuspecting noobs at risk.

Be professional
Act professional
Create a professional product.

And don't kill anyone.
Tan-I, AFF-I, S&TA, Freefall Photographer, Skydive University Coach

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BMFin

***
Ever given any thought to what would happen if you had a premature opening while you are flying under someone?



Sure I have. I take care of my gear. Sometimes I fly underneath other during a freefly jump (just like everyone else). Tandem jump is no different. Flying underneath is no big deal. I dont really understand where this double standard is coming from.

this guy lol here it is straight out of the book! maybe sigma UPT is creating the double standard. i surly wouldnt jump with you

1) No one should ever pass directly over or under the Tandem pair in freefall or droguefall. On exit, the Tandem Instructor needs room to deploy the drogue, and at any time after that, the drogue could suddenly become a deploying main canopy.

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BMFin

***

OK, I'll bite. Explain why you are bulletproof from a premie?



No one is "bulletproof". We just seem to have a very different view on how likely this scenario is. There are many things that add risk to a tandem skydive. One example is hand cam. It definetly does add some risk, but most of us nowadays see the level of risk being acceptable.

Now where things get interesting is when someone would give the handcam to the customer. There are many of us that think this would actually be the safer way to operate opposed to the TM using the hand cam. Then again, there are those conservative TM´s that refuse to accept this idea. They think the student has no bisnes operating a hand cam.

This is a perfect example in demonstrating how differently people asses different risks involved in the sport. There are many things that get overlooked in our sport, and there are things that get make people paranoid. Often the logic behind it is not based on a rational risk assesment analysis.

https://youtu.be/vi24pWw-iH8

Assess (or asses) the risk anyway you want, shit happens. Mitigating that risk by not generating unneccesary risk is a valid, cogent, and intelligent action.

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