Filming 4way with the wrong equipment

[Chiemel 0]

Hi! I'm a rookie camera jumper, with basically what could be considered as the worst gear package ever. No wings, just a gopro (hero 3+ black),... Waiting for a camera suit to show up on the second hand market, same for a camera helmet (which is kind of hard with an XXL :D). I've got a cheap CX115 just waiting for a nice helmet to mount it to

But I figured I'd ask you guys for some help anyway. I've been asked to film some rookie coaching this weekend, so I don't really want to mess up or mess around.

Problem is, I've been filming in the wide FOV for all my camera jumps untill now, but as I get closer and closer to the formation, I still can't get my screen filled (see screengrabs attached). As can be expected, I'm allready pretty close to the formation (atleast to my limits), and I still can't fill up the screen.

I've been doing some comparing videos on the ground, but it's hard without having actually used the medium fov in the air.

Question being: do you guys think I'd be better off using a medium fov for 4way? Anyone who uses a gopro as a backup camera, filming on medium fov?

Any experiences/tips are welcome! Thanks!

[jtiflyer 0]

the angle looks fine but you are a little high on them. If you try to close the gap you need to get more over the top. Without a suit you risk injuring the people below you. The screen shots provided are perfectly judge-able.

[gowlerk 1,903]

This is about as good as it gets with a gropro. You are about as close as you can get, especially without wings to save your ass when you get too close.

To answer your question, yes, the FOV is too wide. Get the CX115 in play and you may find the wide setting is just a little too narrow. Add a .5 wide angle lens to it, and the adjust the zoom to get what you want and your results will be better. Get a camera jacket if you can't find a suit. Used helmets are all over the market now with everyone just going the easy route with gopros. If you just switch your camera to a more narrow frame it only cuts off the amount of the sensor used. It will not improve the overall picture, just crops it.

On the other hand, the shots you show are indeed judgeable and you are learning. Keep up the good work.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Zlew 0]

IMO, using the medium or narrow setting on the gopro makes the vibrations/shakes much too exaggerated.

Wide has almost 180 field of view. You won't be able to easily fill the frame with them unless you are really close, and really steep. The screen grabs you posted, IMO should be fine for what you are doing in the short term.

[Zlew 0]

Also, if it is just for training and not comp...some coaches don't care if the angle is a little bit flatter (and closer).

For comp, it is all about the grips and judgeable video. For training many times they are more concerned with reference points to see how/where people are flying, than if the camera can see a grip hidden behind a booty.

So the stills you posted to the team/coach and ask if that will work. Also ask what they are looking for.

[BETO74 0]

I agree with getting a different camera with a .5 lens but I had seeing plenty good camera flyers that can get super close to the formation to fill the frame wit a go pro or .25 wide angle of course they used wings tho

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[monkycndo 0]

This was my first year training as vidiot with a 4way team and competing at Nationals. I built a camera helmet with two Gopro 3+s on the front. Started with my primary on 1080p on medium and back up on wide. I do jump with wings and have some range where I want to fly. After a few training weekends, changed the settings to narrow and medium as back up. And fly a tiny bit higher. It provides a nice full image on the screen for debriefs. I have a ringsite and having that to aim the helmet also helps with the narrow FOV.

The one place that it is more of a challenge is exits. If you lead, you have to nail the exit. If the team starts turning points on the hill and your timing is off, you can easily have a bust. Since you don't have wings, I would suggest you peel or trail on exit. You will be above the formation from the beginning and the narrower FOV will be fine.

Most importantly, have fun.

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[potatoman 0]

With a gopro, that is as close as you will get, without falling into the team.
When you go narrower fov, you might miss some points, like a grip just outside of view.

Try a sight, before you go to narrower fov.

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[Chiemel 0]

Thanks everyone, looks like I'll be keeping it on wide for now, and I'll be messing around a bit the weekend after that.

I'll be back once I have to figure out how the correct equipment actually works.

Winter project is finding a suit, helmet and a .50 - .55 lens for the CX!

[Zlew 0]

What was your team name? I'd love to see the footage you shot, as I only tested the medium setting on the ground and never in the air. I'd love to see what it looks like in the sky.

The best team in the country is shooting 2 Gopros only. Not sure what the settings are. IMO, the footage is pretty shaky, but clearly it didn't hurt them from a judging or scoring standpoint.

[monkycndo 0]

Team is 5th Wheel in 4 way intermediate FS.

There is a bit of shake in the image, was still adjusting the padding for a tight fit on my helmet.

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[Zlew 0]

Nice! I actually watched all your vids when Krisanne posted her blueskies/dz.com article.

Some shake for sure, but not as bad as I would have guessed it would be on a med or narrow setting.

Without some sort of IS, i think there will always be shake. Turning IS down on my sonys is noticeably more shaky (even with a FTP helmet, boxes/cages etc.).

I really like the .5 or so FOV for 4 way and the gopro Med setting matches that pretty well. If the next version of the gopro has good IS, I'd consider running 2 next year with one on wide and one on med.

Thanks for letting me see your footage!

[VideoFly 0]

Looks good for your experience and equipment. Eventually, learn to fly a winged camera suit, get less of a wide angle lens, fly the burble without crashing through the formation, and stay clear of potential premature deployments.

[sunnyape 1]

You'll find that as you get more experience filming RW and if you know the blocks and randoms, you'll get better at flying a lot closer and using the gaps between the team members for your clean air and which sub-groups in the blocks will steal it.

Seriously, don't be afraid to push it until you start bouncing off them to know what your limit is. As long as you tell the team in advance that you're going to try, the wings are there to pull your arse out of the fire or soften the blow. You'll get used to riding the burble behind the team and keep the wings tucked away the rest of the time.

I've found that experienced teams don't mind the occasional close encounter during training in exchange for really super-duper close footage. Naturally, just back it off for comp.

You'll be revieing your footage in a few years and find yourself mumbling "What are you afraid of? GET IN THERE!"

[sunnyape 1]

I forgot to provide some samples. Here are some grabs from a GoPro 3 in 720p medium mode filming 4 way a few weeks ago. I use a Sony Action Cam as my primary and the GoPro is backup.

I put the GoPro into wide mode for comp, just in case something goes off the frame in the Sony, so that I can submit the other footage.

[jtiflyer 0]

are you getting any jello from looking down with the sony or go pro?

[sunnyape 1]

Nope, not getting any jello effect, as the wind induced vibrations on the helmet aren't high enough. Still get the normal shakey video that the GoPros all have. It's less obvious when you use them in the wider modes.

This is one of the downsides of the very light camera helmet setups we have now. Less mass means less inertia damping, so they are more succeptible to higher frequency vibrations.

The Sony ActionCams have an anti-shake capability, just like their bigger HandyCam brothers, which smoothes things out very nicely, but the field of view is fixed at 120 degrees. It's a pity they don't have as many resolution / angle mode selections as the GoPros.

[jtiflyer 0]

Here is a test jump I did with the AS100. The background at times seems to jello. The subject seems ok.

https://vimeo.com/112448521

[sunnyape 1]

Okay, I can see what you mean. It's only mild, but it is there from time to time.

I did a comparison with footage from my AS30 and it too has very mild jello effect in the background from time to time; about as much as your footage. I used it in the waterproof case which was mounted to the top of the helmet with the Sony provided mouting clips, so between all the bits that can move a little, that might account for the vibration that causes that.

This weekend I'm jumping the new AZ1 which is not in a case and bolted directly to the top of the helmet. I'll see how much difference that makes.

[jtiflyer 0]

Mine was in the waterproof case, but i added some gaffers tape to keep it pretty snug. I ordered some ND gel as well as
Sony Hard Lens Protector for Action Cam MFR#AKAHLP1. Ideally I would like to mount the camera without the waterproof case so I can easily remove and swap cards and batteries. Will post pics of the final setup as well as video for comparison.

[sunnyape 1]

I took the AZ1 jumping over the weekend. I put the review in the thread about the camera http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4668822;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

There's a link there to some sample footage, if the original poster of this thread wants to see how close you can get with a camera with a 120 pov angle. This is about equivalent to a GoPro in 'medium' mode.

[jtiflyer 0]

So I got the Hard Lens Protector and a .6ND filter to fit inside. Here is a quick test video

Sony AS100V 1080 30fps, color at neutral, steady shot on

https://vimeo.com/113351212

seems to really cut if not eliminate the jello in the corners

if anybody is interested in the filter its hard to find small amounts of filter usually sells in 4 foot squares. All you need to fit inside is a piece the size of a nickel.

eta: I used a free vimeo account so the quality is automatically set to 720, the 1080 version is a little better, however this is some IQ loss from using the filter

[sunnyape 1]

What brand is the ND filter material? Where did you purchase it from?

During the week I purchased a Hoya 38mm ND8 filter (http://www.hoyafilter.com/hoya/products/ndfilters/ndx8/), but even when mounted right against the AZ1 lens, the edge of the filter is visible in frame when in 120 degree mode. To avoid seeing the filter edge, you'd need a 49mm or larger filter, which defeats the purpose of the small size of the AZ1.

[jtiflyer 0]

http://www.filmandvideolighting.com/cotech-lee-rosco-210-nd--6--06-neutral-density-2-f-stop-gel-filter-sheet.html

How did you get the Hoya to attach? Too bad sony did not make front covers or Hard protectors tinted to slow the shutter but keep the IQ

eta: I will try another test with the color set to vivid, maybe that might help.

[mircan 0]

I attached my filter like this:

[inline IMG_20141203_093903.jpg]
[inline IMG_20141203_093914.jpg]
[inline IMG_20141203_094305.jpg]
[inline IMG_20141203_094423.jpg]
[inline IMG_20141203_094516.jpg]
[inline IMG_20141203_094536.jpg]

I used 1" PP pipe, cut it, made to fit snug. I could glue the filter directly, but instead I glued spacer ring so I can screw/unscrew filter when needed.

This "adapter" fits very tight to the camera, it does not move at all.

I plan to use it only with steady shot ON (120 degrees). Filter is not visible in the frame.
With steady shot OFF, filter is visible, but jello is not an issue, so no need for filter.

I also managed to get ND gel filter and plan to use it when filming with waterproof case. I have lots this filter (you only need 1" circle), so if anyone needs some, PM me.

dudeist skydiver #42