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TVPB

GoPro Fatality - Coming to a DZ Near U!

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first, it's the AFF main side forgetting-not thinking about that snag/bridle issue not the student



OK - the student is inexperienced and the instructor should know better, BUT
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You can still think for yourself - and recognize hazards and do something about them.

Give a student some responsibility and authority and they will blossom into something much better much sooner.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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Thanks for the post Koen.

Just FYI - I am not saying anything against you. I am just highlighting the dangers of snag points. No one is immune to this. It is a good learning. Glad to see all turned out OK.
:)
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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Really? Are you saying that video is not useful for AFF?



You know damn well what I was saying. In this case the video was not useful in fact it was a foreseeable hazard. The AFF-I’s head is right where the student will release the P/C. If you want video, use a video flyer.

Sparky



Here's the funny thing about this picture and the comments I have read so far.

An AFFI- is supposed to be able to debrief a student on his body position before, during and after the free fall.

An AFFI- is supposed to educate the student on ways to mitigate risk

An AFFI- who uses video is looking to make extra money.
(in the civilian world I understand: people need to eat BUT the use of a snag resistant helmet should be considered.)

The MAIN SIDE AFFI MUST BE OUT OF HIS MIND IF he would wear a go pro with the extension pcs when he knows the student can throw the PC in his face.


and the biggest WTF is THERE IS OUTSIDE VIDEO ON THIS JUMP. HOW THE FK DO YOU THINK WE ARE VIEWING THIS PICTURE??!! Why would they need inside video?


There is video of this jump.
The PC breaks the mount off after about 2 seconds.
on the students 2nd jump the main side AFFI is wearing the go pro again (presumably a NEW ONE since the old one broke of in free fall) The main side AFFI places the students hand on the PC while he is slightly out of position...placing the go pro over the main container. WTF, Really??!! The video cuts before the pull. THE OUTSIDE VIDEO.
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I was the jumpmaster. I was a little bit to high when the student deployed. The bridle did not get stuck around my Gopro, it just got a way. Lucky me
Never, say never....



Koen,
If you are the AFFI thanks for posting here. I have a few questions I was hoping you would answer.


First, can you explain the statement I quoted above?
the video shows the bridal snagged for about 2 seconds before the camera breaks off the mount. That means the bridal did, in fact. get snagged. see here
(Correction- I just watched the video again. the pc looks to be snagged for about 1 second.)

2nd, why would you wear a video if there is outside video available?

3rd, (on the main side especially) was there any concern about the snag hazard prior to the snag or did the thought never cross your mind?

did the thought ever cross anyone else's mind at your DZ?

4th, was that you on the students 2nd jump?(according to the video) Were you on main side again, with a snag hazard helping the student reach for the PC while you were slightly out of position, again?

last, help me understand why you thought that was a good idea.



To be honest I want to thank you. I used this picture to demonstrate what I have been trying to explain to jumpers at my dz. we recently had a few who jump Go Pro and the sway to "oh, that's easy. I can just set it and forget it" mentality started to lull the safety conscious into thinking they were small and easy. The point was received.


While I don't think go pros are dangerous. I think that the proper training is still required. So thank you for helping me push the proper training.
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Focus dude. Call him a 250 jump wonder that has just started wearing camera. Call him skygod. Regardless of his talent and experience, he has a bridle snagged on his gear. The point about 50 jumps is that too many inexperienced are wearing these cameras and the skydiving community is allowing this to happen because the camera is "considered small".



B|:S
"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts

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Hello,

First, the camera did not break off. Everything was still in place.

2nd, I always take a camera when i jump even if there is outside camera. Debriefing is one reason.

3th, it did crossed my mind. But when it occurs, it is always to late.

4th, this was during the practice pulls. There was no snag hazard at that time.


And for helping you to understand this all... I think it"s a good idea for using a camera during AFF. This fact will help the students and they don't have to make extra costs for a videoman. It's also usefull for debriefing. But you always have to keep in mind that things can happen. This thing was a combination of different factors. The student did a verry good and "wide"' pull and I was a little bit to high, because he had a verry strong arch.

Yes sometimes you can avoid these things and when things occure you can only learn from it. This is an example for everybody that shit can happen.

But no offence to GOPRO or the student or somebody else...

Cheers

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And for helping you to understand this all... I think it"s a good idea for using a camera during AFF.



IMO video for debriefing can be valuable but not so much more than verbal that it is worth possibly causing the student to have a major malfunction. If video is so important to your lesson plan, make the weak side AFF-I wear it. That would further reduce the possibility of this specific problem occurring.

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This fact will help the students and they don't have to make extra costs for a videoman.



I just don't think there should be any type of cost variable interjected into a student safety equation.

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But you always have to keep in mind that things can happen. This thing was a combination of different factors. The student did a verry good and "wide"' pull and I was a little bit to high, because he had a verry strong arch.



If it were just you in that picture with your own bridle around your camera I would agree that, hey, shit happens; but not when a student is involved.

On a side note I applaud you for coming forth. I don't write the above while foaming at the mouth. I just simply and respectfully disagree with this specific practice and believe with a couple small adjustments, everyone wins. ;)
"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts

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No Sparky, I didnt know what you meant. Thats why I asked. But it looks like you're saying that a second camera doesnt add anything for the student. This I can agree with.
I think that everyone agrees that video debriefing is superior to just a verbal. It looks like the real question here is should we be using the GoPro or something with a lower profile, like the Contour? Do the anti-snag mounts really reduce the risk enough for student use?
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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>Only reason for him to be wearing the camera is money. It doesn't add a thing to the jump.

Video actually adds quite a bit to the educational value of the jump for the student. At most DZ's, inside video for debrief purposes is free.



I think the picture speaks for itself.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

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There is video of this jump.
The PC breaks the mount off after about 2 seconds.



No, it doesn't.

The bridle + PC get cleared by themselves after about 2 seconds. There is no mount breaking or GoPro tumbling away from the jumpmasters head.

(Goes to show that sometimes being clueless and lucky beats being smart and unlucky...)

In fact, elsewhere on the internet there's video floating around of a parapente-pilot who ends up with the lines of his canopy behind the GoPro mount on top of his helmet. This is filmed by another GoPro on his belly. ( I think a link to it has also been posted on this forum).

There you can clearly see that situations like these can quickly develop into some rather kinky strangulation sex if something is pulling on the GoPro and the GoPro is pulling on your helmet-without-a-quick-release. That GoPro mount is much stronger than most users think it is. But in the case at hand the bridle just cleared through sheer luck.

YMMV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTXiYohr6lw

(edited to include the link to the parapente video)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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I've seen that video before. Thanks for linking it here I couldn't find it when I wanted it.

That helps my discussion with my DZ. We played it slow mo and the consensus was that it broke free. I didn't see it fall away either but most in the room thought it broke.

The AFFI/Vid confirmed that it did not break off, as well.
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Holy cow, how on earth did all of us thousands of skydivers ever make it through aff back in the old days without inside video? Lol
I am not questioning ANYONES skills. Your student WILL make it through aff with or without inside video.
They are a STUDENT, take it upon yourself as an instructor to remove any possibility for something to go wrong that you have control over.

Leave it on the ground.

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Completely agree with this! This year I took off my Go-pro. I decided i didn't want to be in a wingsuit/ line twists/ Go-pro mess. Or a pilot shoot mess, or a "do more cool shit for the video" mess.

Why shoot another (slightly crap) angle. get a videographer and be over it!
take me higher!

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yep. Was already embedded in our "small format cameras" incident report. I snagged it fast because these videos seem to disappear quickly from YouTube.



you're not infringing copyrights here, are you!? :P

:D:D:D
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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nope, I'm not.
Specifically why?
Because it is for the betterment of the community, educational in nature, viewable for purposes of public commentary, and falls under Fair Use.

Besides, if it's on the web, only an idiot believes their copyrights are intact.:D:P

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I'm not a fan of the typical snag magnet gopro mounts.

If people are going to use the camera, it might be better with something like this:

http://www.chutingstar.com/newgear_en/square-one-gopro-top-mount.html

Or perhaps better would be a mount more on the front of the helmet, perhaps shaped like a truncated cone/pyramid, with a recess for the camera to velcro into, with the back face of the camera almost against the helmet.

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I do not see why years of advice and lessons about camera snag points should go out the window with the use of a Go-Pro. Cheap and cheerful does not mean basic safety advice should be ignored.

There's enough troubling evidence in this thread to make any sensible skydiver reconsider this as an option.

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I'm surprised that GoPro for example hasn't came up with a helmet that have the camera integrated in it. Shouldn't be that hard to do since the needed electornics are so tiny. One in front and one on the back. Zero sutff sticking out.

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