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freeflyit

Camera hard deck-flying skills

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Hi All,

I'm flying camera now, I have about 50+ jumps or so with it and am making the transition into not just jumping with the thing on my head, but focusing on filming someone else now. I have been focusing on that for the last 10 jumps or so.

My main goal is of course tandems. My set up is this; FF2 (with cutaway) with CX150, Hypeye, two audibles and an old tony wing suit, no booties and a coupel of good knives. No still cam (not ready for that). I have the ringsight but have not put it on my helmet yet.

My plan is to have the ringsight on in about 10-30 more jumps.

Anyways, if you're willing to share, I'd like to know what you do to make your camera jump successful...what you are thinking about at that level. Like what is your harddeck for tandem jumps, 4-ways, track dives, ect? I basically don't want to take this thing off of my head now until I am ready for something else. What do you think about the most. It's like a formula right? The same old equation...now we're doing it with additional variables, what do you consider to be your most important ones?


Plus, I can definately use some good wisdom on the actual flying with the tandems...I find it hard to stay with them on exit and to be perfectly ohnest, I don't have that confidence that "no matter what, I will be there!" How did you get there? What tricks/skills do you apply to make sure you're there?

A lot, I know. pick anything and expand on it, I appreciate your time.

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Plus, I can definately use some good wisdom on the actual flying with the tandems...I find it hard to stay with them on exit and to be perfectly ohnest, I don't have that confidence that "no matter what, I will be there!" How did you get there? What tricks/skills do you apply to make sure you're there?



Air time. Practice. This is how you assure the confidence.
What aircraft are you jumping from? This may make a difference. For example, if you're rear-floating a larger door, track "up the hill" as you leave the aircraft to stay close to the tandem.
IMO, the BEST way to learn to fly with tandems is to be sure you have the ability to fly no-contact RW. Take friends out, fly as close as you can without touching. Learn to be in their face and back off very fast from the exit. I wouldn't consider jumping with tandems til you have this skill.
Can you fly a column of air in a fat/dumb/happy slot? If not, learn to.

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Because I'm in the geographical location that I am, theer are many options for aircraft available to me. I am in driving distance to several dropzones. They have King Airs, cessna's and a Piper PA-31 Navajo. The piper though is what I will be flying the most I believe.

What do you mean by "Can you fly a column of air in a fat/dumb/happy slot? If not, learn to."?

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can you park in front of someone that is falling straight down, no movement, without moving yourself, ie; "fat, dumb, happy."
Can you put your face into theirs and not move from that place? This, IMO, is an essential skill for shooting tandems, and it's a skill that isn't developed by learning to sitfly at jump 25 and then screwing around with freeflying until one reaches the "age" of flying a camera. It takes a lot of belly time to be able to fly "fat, dumb, happy."

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cessnas with a step = reasonably safe and secure as outside camera.

King Air = faster exit speeds, relatively narrow door. with or without a camera step and handle will make a difference....

Piper PA-31 Navajo =
not sure.
i'm guessing it's a low wing twin..??how many jumpers.?
stay Off the flaps. be sure about what is what with the horizontal stabilizer,, like how close it is, how low it is... ? never made a jump from that type aircraft. Have YOU made MANY from it??? any pictures, please?? i'd like to see what it looks like.

skydive safely good luck.

jmy

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A great way to learn how to fly with tandems is getting a coach rating and then actually using it. If done right, you'll learn these fabulous skills:

- what to look for on exit timing (good & bad)
- how to fall straight down
- improved situational awareness
- rapid fall rate adjustments
- anticipating fall rate changes
- how to deal with students

Mix this up with chasing bad RW groups for a while with video & stills. Then it'll be time to think about filming tandems.

Lance

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Like what is your harddeck for tandem jumps, 4-ways



Did you give this much thought before you posted?

Tandems dump on the high side of 5k, leaving you alone in the sky at 4.5k. Do you really need a plan for that?

Four way teams break off between 4.5k and 3.5k, again, leaving you alone in the middle. Care to guess what comes next?

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I can definately use some good wisdom on the actual flying with the tandems...I find it hard to stay with them on exit and to be perfectly ohnest, I don't have that confidence that "no matter what, I will be there!"



The exits are one thing, as they are unique to tandems and cannot really be learned by anything but just doing them.

"Being there" on the other hand, is similar to any RW speed jump. Once the drougue is out, most tandems sit fairly still. Any changes they make to fall rate or direction are very slight, and you could easily encoutner a wider range on an average RW jump. If you cannot consistantly stay with an RW jump, you shouldn't be jumping with tandems at all.

Keep in mind that before you make jump #1 with a tandem, you should be a 'professional' level jumper, at least to the extent that you can reliably stay out of their way and 'do no harm'. You and the TI might know you're the 'new guy' and just getting started, but to the passenger, you're a 'professional', and they expect (and deserve) you to perform like one.

Learn to fall straight down, close a gap from above, below and from the side BEFORE you jump with a tandem. Paid or not, a tandem is no time to learn that you can't control your proximity and go flying into them. The Tonysuit will only make it worse.

Once you can shoot good, consistant, controlled RW video, from exit to break off, then start jumping with the tandems.

For exits, start off by getting off early. Go on the 'set' of the count. Tandems fall fast before the drouge comes out, so even if you get off early, their speed right out of the door will help you close the gap.

If you don't get off early, they will catch you on the hill. If they get next to you before they set the drouge, you might be in the 'line of fire' and take a drouge to the face. Staying tight makes for nice exit shots, but staying clear of the drouge is 1000% more important.

The exit is only one small part of the video. Sacrifice the tightness of the shot for the safety in the beginning and creep your way in little by little each jump. Within 20 or 30 you'll be within a good range, until then, keep back and be patient. Once the drouge is set you'll have plenty of time to get in there and get the tight shot.

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Sorry, let me address this more thoroughly.

King Air has a step and handle, low stabilizer.

Piper...made a few (maybe 20?). It's very similar to the king air but since it isn't turbine, it doesn't fly as fast (I assume).

And thank you for the luck :)

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For exits, start off by getting off early. Go on the 'set' of the count. Tandems fall fast before the drogue comes out, so even if you get off early, their speed right out of the door will help you close the gap.



I agree with most of what you wrote, but not this quote at all. Yes, tandems "fall" fast before they get the drogue out. But they are "falling" into the relative wind, which is the direction of flight. if you leave too soon, their additional speed will make them harder to catch, not easier.

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Thank you, this actually helped me quite a lot. "Close the Gap"...that one thing that stuck out in my mind and made it clear. When you put it like that it doesn't seem so scary...lol.

Forgive me, I should have also mentioned my experience. I have been doing RW and coach jumps (as in getting coaching)...expanding into 20 ways at times...but I can see exactly how the skills transfer from one to the other. Closing the gap...will practice that one more just so I know I can. I have already been jumping with tandems...probably around 10 jumps and for one of them I was there the whole time and the tandem master felt comfortable enough to take grips with me and flip me upside down...no camera on that jump though...lol. My profile says 'A', but I have all the prereq's for my B, I still need to write the exam.

As for hard decks, yes I realize all that and I did take the time to think about this but also think about this. The tandem master forgets to pull his drogue..jumping a sigma...he's pulling but nothing's happening. Suddenly the cypress fires and you realize you're below 2 in complete freefall!!! Yea, hardecks...same with groups who continue to turn points below planned breakoff. It sounds simple, just wanted to hear what other people have planned for those cases.

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if you leave too soon, their additional speed will make them harder to catch, not easier.



The idea is to get the guy to leave earlier than later, and keep him away from the drouge. He's got the whole jump to catch them if need be, which is preferable to taking a drouge to the face.

A tandem will fall faster down the hill then say, an AFF or other RW group, and will be easier to catch if you leave early. The belly fliers will get blown up over your head, while the tandem will be out in front of you. Seeing as you need to keep your head up for camera sighting, the easier gap to close is the horizontal, not the vertical. How does the old saying go, "If you're low and looking up, you'll never get back in"?

If I had to choose, 30 feet under or 30 feet horizontally, I'd take the horizontal any day. In fact, I'd take 30 feet horizontal AND 30 feet low over 30 feet under any day (of course I mean 'mostly' under, because directly under is a huge no-no, and the reason I told the guy to practice with something other than tandems).

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think about this. The tandem master forgets to pull his drogue..jumping a sigma...he's pulling but nothing's happening. Suddenly the cypress fires and you realize you're below 2 in complete freefall!!!



No, you think about it. Do you really think you can stay with a drougeless tandem? You didn't mention anything about freefly skills, but you'll need some top notch ones to stay with a drougeless tandem.

If it's not perfectly clear to you within 10 or 15 seconds of exit that things aren't right when a TI forgets to set the drouge, you have no business shooting video.

Besides, you have two audibles, where are they set for? One should go off before the tandem pull altitude, so you know it's coming, and are ready for it. Another should be set above your pull altitude, so you know that's coming, and in case you missed the first one, and so did the TI, you can still get clear and pull close to you planned pull altitude. The others should be related your hard deck, and your 'don't cut away' altitude.

No offence, but you've posted some ideas that show a fundamental lack of forethought. Break off from a tandem? Drougless tandems down to Cypres fire altitude with you filming the whole time? Do either of those seem based in reality?

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Point taken, but just to let you know, this story was not made up. It happened to a guy I know, a guy who almost klilled himself and he drilled it to me that have a harddeck. And yes, I was aware that you would have to be freeflying for this.

"If it's not perfectly clear to you within 10 or 15 seconds of exit that things aren't right when a TI forgets to set the drouge, you have no business shooting video"

It's good talking about this because now I will keep that in my mind. But before, I might not have...not when I'm actually in freefall. It's one thing to respond when you're sitting behind a desk and another when you're standing up with a drogueless tandem right in front of you and all you're trying to do is communicate to them to save their lives.

"No offence, but you've posted some ideas that show a fundamental lack of forethought. Break off from a tandem? Drougless tandems down to Cypres fire altitude with you filming the whole time? Do either of those seem based in reality?"

None taken. Again in reality...not likely but still there I think.

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It's one thing to respond when you're sitting behind a desk and another when you're standing up with a drogueless tandem right in front of you



Dude, you're standing up. If that's not enough indication to you and the TI that something isn't right, you both should be grounded.

Keep in mind, it's not your job to save their lives, it's your job to stay out of their way and not take them out. Unless you have the freefly chops to stay with a drougless tandem (which will not be the rock-solid stable base a tandem in drougefall is) and throw a useful and helpful pull signal, you shouldn't be anywhere near them. In fact, you should be staying well clear of them because when the TI figures out what's going, something big is going to happen.

If he sets the drouge, they'll drop 50mph off their fall rate in under 2 seconds. if he dumps the reserve, they'll drop 150mph off their fall rate in 5 seconds. Either way, you don't need to be anywhere near that. What would happen if you were diving down to them when either one of those brakes were applied?

It's like an AFF student below the hard deck, when you chase them all they see is you in freefall, which is what they expect to see, so everything seems 'fine'. The better move is to get the fuck out of there and stay clear, maybe cluing the TI into the idea that you don't like what you see.

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It happened to a guy I know, a guy who almost klilled himself and he drilled it to me that have a harddeck



For the above reasons, the guy you know is an idiot. Staying with them down to Cypres fire altitude is dumb as shit, and he probably told you the story to stroke his own ego, and show you how 'cool' he is.


Camera flying isn't rocket science in many ways, and break off is one of them. You're filming a skydive, and when it's over, you stop filming. For a tandem, it's over at pull time. For RW, the filming is over when the group breaks off. Either way, your job ends well before anyone should be in 'danger'. So don't be stupid and don't be a hero, and get the hell out when the job is done and open a parachute.

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I have already been jumping with tandems...probably around 10 jumps and for one of them I was there the whole time and the tandem master felt comfortable enough to take grips with me and flip me upside down...no camera on that jump though...lol.



Sorry to rain on your parade but the above statement tells me everything I need to know about your skills.

If a tandem instuctor (with a tandem hooked on front) can flip you upside down or do anything to get you unstable, then you just don't have the skills to be filming tandems.

I know this won't keep you from pursuing it, so at least try to be cautious because you just aren't there yet buddy.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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Let me clear the air...he didn't grab me and make me unstable. We were face to face I grab his right hand with my right hand, then his left with my left and he just flips me on my back still holding on. Still stable just got flipped...he did it on purpose.

EDIT:

I realize I am not there yet. I am starting the process of becoming ready. I am not here to argue but to learn, and I am listening to what you all have said and I really do appreciate the time you have taken to do so. I also realized I shouldn't make certain comments without properly explaining myself. Maybe you are right as well, that even though he did flip me, he shouldn't have been able to, but I did not know he would. Thank you, that has reinforced my knowledge base.

I do hope to be there in aproximately 50 more jumps, but it may be that I will need many more and am being unrealistic.

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