Jumping a camera with Military experience but without the BSR #s

[bigjonwa 0]

So, I have been tossing this idea around and figured id put it on this forum to see what folks think. The BSRs state that the recommendation for jumping a camera is a C license. That means at a very least, 200 jumps. Now, in discussion with alot of folks, i have determined that this is due to the fact that people want experience in the air before someone adds another element of distraction hence, posing a pretty hazardous situation. However, a military jumper is thrown into the air with multiple distractions VERY early in the game. With very little jumps a military jumper is thrown into the air with a rucksack between his legs. The ruck can pose a huge challenge to flying and can easily throw the jumper in to a pretty crazy spin. So, he is focused on that. NOW, add a weapon strapped to his side and an O2 Mask on his face and a 25k exit altitude and you have a number of distractions on you hands.... What im getting at is....... Do you think an individual that went through this type of training has the capability to jump a camera(with proper coaching) with less jump numbers than the BSRs dictate? Im not looking to start an argument, just simple input and honest opinions

[stratostar 5]

Maybe, or maybe not..... But it's not really any diff then any other person who chimes in saying the same type of of stuff but on a motorcycle or XYZ what ever high stress high speed sport/job.

Most are told the same song and dance, I would tell you your not any more special & "we follow the sims" and then I expect you would buy a GO Pro on ebay or some gear store and slap it on after asking how to do it on here and then go play videoflyer like every one else....

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[DSE 3]

Quote

So, I have been tossing this idea around and figured id put it on this forum to see what folks think. The BSRs state that the recommendation for jumping a camera is a C license. That means at a very least, 200 jumps. Now, in discussion with alot of folks, i have determined that this is due to the fact that people want experience in the air before someone adds another element of distraction hence, posing a pretty hazardous situation. However, a military jumper is thrown into the air with multiple distractions VERY early in the game. With very little jumps a military jumper is thrown into the air with a rucksack between his legs. The ruck can pose a huge challenge to flying and can easily throw the jumper in to a pretty crazy spin. So, he is focused on that. NOW, add a weapon strapped to his side and an O2 Mask on his face and a 25k exit altitude and you have a number of distractions on you hands.... What im getting at is....... Do you think an individual that went through this type of training has the capability to jump a camera(with proper coaching) with less jump numbers than the BSRs dictate? Im not looking to start an argument, just simple input and honest opinions

You cannot even begin to equate the training discipline (mental and otherwise) of the military to even the most dedicated skydiver, IMO.

It has not so much to do with the individual that can manage this sort of training as the training environment itself.

I work with a great number of military skydivers on a daily/weekly basis. I've seen them performing in their military duties and as civilians. They are not the same person in each environment.

[bigjonwa 0]

So, correct me if im wrong but what im gathering from your post is that it doesnt matter what kind of experience you have with in those # of jumps that the BSRs state, it only matters if you have that specific number?


........This is in regards to the very first post after the initial

[bigjonwa 0]

DSE.... I know where you are coming from with the respect of 2 totally different disciplines... I was a civilian jumper prior to being a military jumper and since then i have developed two totally different views on the entire sport.... its an interesting subject and would love to hear others input on the whole deal. i understand that a great deal of civilian jumpers dont know what the military freefall training involves and vise versa. opinions share ideas and facts and who knows, they might bring to light bring issues not discussed before....

[DSE 3]

I'm not sure what your point is though.
If you're trying to suggest that you've been jumping camera in the military realm and therefore OK to jump camera in the civilian realm...I'd strongly disagree. What one does in the military environment prepares them well for some civilian activities, but I don't accept that camera flying is one of them.
Otherwise, why not just let a dude that has 25 jumps with rucks or bundles start flying tandems too?

Either way...it would appear you're trying to engage an argument (which you stated you didn't want to start), and if so...the thread will be locked. This argument is worn thin in hundreds or thousands of posts. I don't think the argument is going to produce any new information.

Military gets unique rules, and in that environment...those unique rules seem to work really well. However, a *lot* of people trained in the military do not function remotely as well outside of the well-disciplined military environment when engaged in similar activities in the civliian world.
Further, when one enters the civilian world, then the civilian rules apply. (whether we're talking about skydiving or anything else).

[stratostar 5]

Yea what home boy just said, pretty much sums it up.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[bigjonwa 0]

Im not trying to suggest that what is done in the military is ok to do in the civilian realm, we all know that both sides of the fence operate with different rules. Also, in no way am i trying to engage in an argument....I am simply asking point of views on the subject.... If its a distraction thing, then whats to say a ruck is less distracting then a camera... I ask this because i do fly a ruck regularly and have never flown a camera, so i am trying to find a common senses on how alike the two might be(in regards to destraction). I realize that with a ruck your just burning a hole in the sky and a camera is more of a dynamic skillset. but if one were able to fly a ruck and and the rest of the "get up" do you think that he would be more apt to catch on to the skill of flying a camera sooner than the BSRs #.......

[DSE 3]

Quote

if one were able to fly a ruck and and the rest of the "get up" do you think that he would be more apt to catch on to the skill of flying a camera sooner than the BSRs #.......

I don't believe so, no.

[billvon 2,396]

> . . . it doesnt matter what kind of experience you have with in those # of
>jumps that the BSRs state, it only matters if you have that specific
>number?

Not at all! It matters a great deal. Someone who is exceptional at 4-way, is trained to deal with distractions, has done specific training jumps for camera flight etc might be able to start doing camera for 4-way at 200 jumps. Someone who is more a fun jumper might need to wait to jump #500.

The 200 jump number is not a "good to go" number. It is a _minimum_ and presupposes an exceptional jumper.

[billvon 2,396]

>Do you think an individual that went through this type of training has the
>capability to jump a camera(with proper coaching) with less jump numbers
>than the BSRs dictate?

If it is within the confines of a military training program, where the camera is integrated into that training? Yes.

Or are you asking - does a military jumper's experience in MFF qualify him to do camera in a civilian environment earlier than someone who is used to a civilian environment? No. Indeed, in some cases, it may be a hindrance rather than a help.

Military jumpers have very specific training that enables them to perform a mission - and that mission generally has nothing to do with sport jumping. It is a mistake, for example, to assume a military jumper with a lot of jumps is any good at RW; that's not what they train for.

[Pulse 0]

I would say 'no' simply out of the fact that I believe the USPA requirements are very light for flying camera. It's typical for us to simply meet the minimum stated requirements and continue on. But then you're just joining the legions of other skydivers out there with cameras on their heads that are recording crappy images.

If that's what you want...go crazy.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[SEREJumper 1]

Quote

Do you think an individual that went through this type of training has the capability to jump a camera(with proper coaching) with less jump numbers than the BSRs dictate?

No. I concur with what billvon and DSE have to say. I was in the same boat as you experience wise a few years ago, mil and civ jumps combined. Knowing what I know now, I was not ready for a camera back then.

Military jumping is it's own skill set. Jumping a ruck and jumping a camera are totally different skills. I've seen guys with hundreds of equipment jumps that I would not want jumping a camera.

My advice, get some coaching (no camera) during this jumping season by a competent camera flyer while you wait until the minimum recommended jump #'s. I will pretty much guarantee that you will agree with me that it was worth the wait.

Lastly, enjoy the ride man! If you continue jumping long enough, you are going to start running out of "firsts". That's one of the best things about the sport and keeps you coming back, waiting until you are ready to do them makes them even sweeter.

We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

[kevin84 0]

I must preface by saying that I am new to the sport of skydiving...but a veteran (infantryman) and old to other "exciting" sports (motorcycle road racing being one of them) and I think many parallels can be drawn. First off, I would think that mainly what a new camera jumper needs to adjust to would not be the equipment itself, but the distraction it poses or maybe even the drive to push a little harder to make the video a bit cooler (very common with motorcycles). With that, I think that it has a lot to do with the individual jumper and his respect for the sport. For example, mounting a camera on a motorcycle doesn't in any way affect the handling of the bike. It sits on the gas tank, weighs very little (especially considering these 400 lb bikes are nearing 200 hp), and is kept out of the relative wind by the windscreen. I could put a camera on any motorcycle on the planet and ride it as safely as I ride anything else. But the guy standing next to me could put a camera on a 50cc dirtbike and find a way to kill himself. With that, obviously that's not the only distraction that would come from flying a camera, but I think an individual that is highly trained in dealing with many different factors in a high stress environment would be more apt to take the new element in stride and be safer than his civilian counterpart.
In addition, we all know the guy that jumped fifty million times to pass aff, and the guy that sailed. Somebody with 100 jumps that just learned how to side slide yesterday and doesn't read up and study will be much less safe than the DEDICATED jumper with 100 jumps. It seems those numbers are more of a guideline in essence.

[velvetjo 0]

Oddly enough, many of the experienced folks who support the 200 jump recommendation have many of the same military and sports qualifications that you list.

You may not be as special as you think you are.
Lance

[virgin-burner 1]

he's probably one of the guys out of the three that got banned in most cali-based dz's where they went with a guy that hadnt passed AFF and him and another guy took that dude out instructor-style..

forged logbooks too!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[jumpwally 0]

"a ruck is less/more distracting "............common sense says without the right skills you can take out a tandem/instructor,,,they did not sign up for that.

Go practice under an experienced camera guy's wing, there are planty around that are willing. You get more cred that way.

If you screw up with your ruck,,,well ,,,its just you drilling your dick into it on impact...

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083