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How big should a non-compressed HC62 video file be??

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I have been jumping a Sony HC-62 mini-dv camcorder for a while.... I have been just using Windows Movie Maker and dumping the files on my computer. I didn't think the files were being compressed but my buddy thinks they are.... I end up downloading jumps at about 3mb per minute of tape. Is movie maker compressing this file or is there a way to get better quality by using firewire and different software or...?...?
I really don't want to buy a HD camera yet, so just trying to see if I can get better quality by doing something different.

Thanks! And I did search for a while but couldn't find a thread on this subject.

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It's a DV camera. Yes, it's compressed, you're compressing to 25Mbps and a 4:1:1 color space. There are no small format uncompressed cameras.
13GB per hour/250MB per minue is where you're seeing data storage.
Compare that to 660 per minute for 8 bit uncompressed SD in a 4:2:2 container or about 1GB for same in a 4:4:4 container.

DV by its very definition is compressed at record/storage.

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by using firewire



If you are not using firewire you are downloading very compressed video yes. Always use firewire for miniDV cameras! Just cut the usb cable in half :S



Even if you are using firewire, you are downloading very compressed video. Doesn't matter if it's USB or not.
It's compressed long before it ever reaches the firewire port on the camera.

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Even if you are using firewire, you are downloading very compressed video. Doesn't matter if it's USB or not.
It's compressed long before it ever reaches the firewire port on the camera.



So are you saying 3mb per minute is about the best I can get?
How do I get the most un-compressed video out of this camcorder??

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Are you sure you don't mean 3.5mB/second (versus minute)?

Yes DV is compressed. but I think what you were asking was is MovieMaker compressing it more (or re-compressing it). I really don't know and have never used MovieMaker, but I believe DV (and HDV for that matter) is about 3.5mB/second. So I can't imagine it is compressing it more.

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It's DV. You can't "uncompress" it more than that. DV by definition, is heavily compressed.
MPEG 2 is compressed.
AVCHD is more heavily compressed.

Why are you hung up on the compression?

If you use firewire for the transfer from camera to computer, it's a straight across data transfer, just like using a USB cable from a portable HDD. Nothing is lost (and nothing gained).
If you want uncompressed, be prepared to spend big bux on camera, computer, hardware support.
An uncompressed SD system (were it still available) is around 200K including a decent camera.
An uncompressed HD system is gonna be in the 500K range today.
Virtually no one outside of very high end production scale uses uncompressed. For anything.

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I think what you were asking was is MovieMaker compressing it more (or re-compressing it).



That's exactly what I am asking, thanks.... Right now when I upload a skydive, for about a minute of footage the file is 3mb in size. So it's sounding like it is compressing it more..... Unfortunately I don't have a fire wire connection on my outdated computer.

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Why are you hung up on the compression?



Maybe I am using the wrong terminology.


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You can't "uncompress" it more than that. DV by definition, is heavily compressed.



I'm just wondering if I am compressing it more (reducing the quality) by using USB and movie maker. My personal computer does not have a fire-wire port.

I'll just buy a fire wire and try it on my work computer which should have the fire wire port.....

You are obviously more knowledgeable about this and I appreciate your time! Blue Skies!!

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I think you're confusing compression at acquisition with compression on output.
It *may* be that USB is further compressing the content on capture, but it's unlikely that it's enough you'd notice.

Anyway...its the output you need to be worrying about, and that's where Moviemaker is likely killing you.
You haven't indicated where you're putting the finished video, so it's hard to advise you on how to output the video file.
MovieMaker will definitely be compressing on output.
IMO, rather than spending money for a firewire for a computer that doesn't have it for a camera that isn't at all current for most things...spend that same amountof money on an editing program that will work with DV without touching the footage, and has a good compression algorithm for output to DVD or web.

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think you're confusing compression at acquisition with compression on output.
It *may* be that USB is further compressing the content on capture, but it's unlikely that it's enough you'd notice.



Your answers I'm SURE are always 100% technically correct... but often way off the point.

Do you know of a way to capture video from an HC62 with USB that will match the quality of a capture with firewire? And don't go pointing me to some $20,000 device they use in studios or something.

You're hung up on the word "uncompressed" and nobody else is. We get it... that AVI file we create when we capture from MiniDV cameras is compressed. That's got nothing to do with the guy's question. He wants to know why his videos are more compressed than they need to be. Obviously it's because he's capturing with USB, not firewire.

Simple answers... we're simple people.

Dave

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Your answers I'm SURE are always 100% technically correct... but often way off the point.

Do you know of a way to capture video from an HC62 with USB that will match the quality of a capture with firewire? And don't go pointing me to some $20,000 device they use in studios or something.

You're hung up on the word "uncompressed" and nobody else is. We get it... that AVI file we create when we capture from MiniDV cameras is compressed. That's got nothing to do with the guy's question. He wants to know why his videos are more compressed than they need to be. Obviously it's because he's capturing with USB, not firewire.

Simple answers... we're simple people.

Dave



Yep.
Use software that doesn't use compression on ingest. Sony Vegas captures video over USB.
But there is no guarantee of not dropping frames, because USB doesn't have a guaranteed throughput.
It's wrong to think that USB vs Firewire means quality difference. Both are identical data transfer protocols.
But...most software tools use a buffer and recompress on transfer over USB.
Firewire prevents that.

Thanks for reminding me; it's easy to forget I'm not talking to video people, who understand the differences between compression on input vs output.

For some reason I was under the stupid impression that folks *want* to understand the technical reasoning.

Easy answer;
Throw away the piece of shit camera, go buy a 300.00 GoPro, transfer over card and be done with it.
Better?

or, go buy a Pinnacle or Canopus card from Ebay for 99.00. Still gonna lose quality over composite, but there is no way to do a digital transfer over USB and MovieMaker without losing quality/resolution.

Or get an SVid card from Leitch (about 150.00) and use that to get a better input.

but you're STILL STUCK with MovieMaker compressing on output, and not knowing what file type is being generated on output...hard to know where the real problem is.

Seems to me that the OP's question is about quality, not mechanics.
there I go being technical again.

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Well, you proved me wrong. I had to pull out my PC1000 and try it. Sure enough, it worked.

With Vegas, capturing via USB was no problem at all. It gave me a warning afterward that dropped frames were detected, but the video plays back just fine... same as a firewire capture.

Guess there are about 1000 threads on this site that need to be updated... :P

Dave

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DSE, some of us do want the technical details, so please keep 'em coming. There are plenty of "dumbed down" forums on the net already if folks need that type of advice.

It's great to have you here as a resource, although with some of the comments posted lately I wouldn't blame you at all for becoming frustrated at times.

Lance

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Glad it worked for you as advertised.

There was a company years ago that made a card called "Falcon" that worked with Vegas, Premiere, and Canopus that allowed for frame-accurate capture over USB, but when Apple licensed Firewire to everyone, the card was too expensive and superflous, even at 150.00. ADS made a card too, that buffered USB kinda like MovieMaker does. It was a dismal failure.

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when using a USB or fire wire, all data is sent via data packet. (start,data.end) the computer sent chunk at a time, they do not compress file they actually add more because of the data add it to let the other side know when is the start of the file and end of file, fire wire is faster because of the simple protocol than USB.
Buffer is a storage area where the next segment of the transmission packet is held at before it is transited the digital signal is not compressed at any time (computer is all abut speed not the size of packet, if you comperes a file you need to comperes and uncompressed that wast time)
To OP you need a Sony vegas there not the expensive like the other edition software what make difference is the software the capture the video via compression schema, It make lot's difference between one software to the other on capture, editing there is not that different but capturing there is night and day.
"A peaceful heart leads to a healthy body; jealousy is like cancer in the bones ..."

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To OP you need a Sony vegas there not the expensive like the other edition software what make difference is the software the capture the video via compression schema, It make lot's difference between one software to the other on capture, editing there is not that different but capturing there is night and day.



Vegas capture in the VMS and Pro versions is 100% identical. In fact, it hasn't changed as a capture utility for nearly 4 years. There is NO COMPRESSION when using USB or 1394 as an input/transfer protocol. The compression is done in the camera, known as "DV."

Vegas Pro has features that allow for hardware cards to be used on CAPTURE such as the Black Magic Design or AJA cards, while VMS has these features turned off in the system prefs (can be exposed by a knowledgeable geek).
Over 1394 or USB, the data transfer is 100% bit for bit the same as what comes from tape. Whether you capture from tape with Premiere, Vegas, Edius, Pinnacle; if the source is the same source, file size will be identical. True, flags/metadata are marginally different but the IEEE spec is the same across the board.

Perhaps I'm missing the point?

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+1

I love the techincal data, and it is spot on :). my vote is keep it coming, i might only use a little of it, but it helps.

thanks DSE for spending the time to educate us on video, ill get u back when u start flying like birds off a mountain.

P
dont let life pass you by

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