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tmontana

Packing problems

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well i'm a student too..so i can offer you one tip(except practise)
ask some different divers, they all have different ways to explaining (one more clearer than the other) that's where i got alot of help....

1st and 2nd packjob --> (brand-new) Navigator 230 (ZP)(went a-ok after having it slip away a couple of times (rolling the nose)
3rd packjob --> Some huge 280's (F111) was waaaaayy to big for me and coudn't reach all the cell...

so maybe getting al of the stuff a little closer (and less huge), helps for me anyways

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Quote

well i'm a student too..so i can offer you one tip(except practise)
ask some different divers, they all have different ways to explaining (one more clearer than the other) that's where i got alot of help....


There certainly are a lot of different methods and tricks out there, and you'll have plenty of time to investigate and experiment with different techniques.
Most of the people I know, their biggest complaint about learning to pack was that too many people explaining it too many ways, making it difficult to grasp. I think the best thing to do is to have one person teach you without anybody sticking in their 2 cents. This will make it much easier to learn. Once you've got it down, you can try different techniques and find out what works best for you.

Stay safe.

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

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I found packing a bit tricky to start with until a nice packer who had 5 mins to spare explained exactly what each bit of the canopy did and why it was packed in a certain way...for example quartering the slider to make sure the air hits that first and slow up the opening...as soon as I could understand why it was done like that I found it a million times easier...

That oh and practise! Keep trying you'll get it.

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Bub, I know what you mean - I've packed about 15-20 pack-jobs now so hopefully my recent experience can help you somewhat.

I was having problems (still do, sometimes) packing the student PD230, trying to figure out where the lines go, and which are which.

I just recently got a Sabre 190 and flaking it is a breeze (stuffing ZP into the bag, well... that's another story).

I asked our head packer why the Sabre is so easy and he said that the less material there is the easier the lines "automatically" group together when you grab the nose and shake it out. After packing this chute 4-5 times it sure made packing the PD230 a lot easier to pick out which lines were which.

Recommendation 1 - try flaking a lot smaller chute to get familiar with which lines go where.

Also, another trick I use on the larger chute (which I no longer have to pack, thank god) is that I use the slider to help group lines.

Each line-set per-side is:
5 A lines and 5 B lines on the rear-right slider grommet,
5 C lines, 5 D lines and the steering lines in the right-front slider grommet.

Recommendation #2: Use the slider to your advantage to help you flake out the canopy.

Recommendation #3: Checkout sidsrigging - there is a drawing showing hoe the lines lay-out. Once you get/understand the drawing, you go "ah-ha!". And the funny thing is once you get it you realize how simple the drawing really is.

And lastly, as others have said...

practice, practice, practice....

Good luck,

- Jeff

"That's not flying, it's falling with style."

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I started using a new procedure because students expressed the same problem you have....

Instead of keeping everything on one shoulder. After you flake it and stick the nose between your legs, try splitting the two lines groups where the left line group is on the left shoulder and the right line group is on the right shoulder and the slider is behind your head. Much easier to "see" the line order this way.

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AMEN! I was 'help challenged' and now I'm still pack challenged...The main person who taught me was very good, but too many others along the way elevated the frustration level. Now, when I'm at he dz, I'd rather jump than pack, but we all know I need the 'refresher' course!! Maybe someone will take pity on the little princess and offer some one on one tutoring....
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Honestly, identifying the line groups is an more an understanding of what you are looking at. When you Pro-pack a ram air canopy its often a question of counting the appropriate number of lines which are the same line length and flaking the material to the outside. All the lines will then run down the center of the pack job.

This can be achieved easily with some 1:1 instruction and a bit of practice. If in doubt speak to your instructor/rigger about some 1:1 during bad weather day.

Once you understand what your doing. You will find that you shouldnt need color coded line attachments etc. which will help when your jumping other canopies such as demo's or when you downsize.

I would speak to local rigger about marking stuff if you really want to as that way you will ensure its done correctly - marking the wrong lines would confuse you even more and more than likely they will mark the attachment points and not the lines themselves.

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flyingsky

I also have problems to identify the right lines and I am thinking to color code them. Can I just use regular marker to do it or is it unsafe for the lines?



Last I recall in some Dz.com conversation on the topic years back, real Sharpies weren't acidic and won't harm nylon. But no guarantees though. Still, I've never heard of parachute components breaking from a little ink on them.

Although I know my way around canopies (as an active rigger and owner of a few), I still coloured the attachments a canopy I use a lot because... it was handy to have it that way.

(The DZ I'm at uses Aerodyne student and rental canopies. Everyone loves the colour coded attachment tapes... but of course it is a bit of an adjustment when a newbie gets their own canopy without that.)

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If you are going to mark them at all, you just need to mark the Ds. The As and Bs are easy to see. Some people have a hard time telling the Cs from the Ds. Black sharpie on the D attachment tapes should take care of that.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Pick one person to learn from and go with what they say and bring your questions to them. Everyone has different things they emphasize due to individual experience; if you get different advice or methods often you'll get confused and ultimately not learn much. Pick one and stick with it, then practice practice.
Most packers, riggers, and experienced folks will give you their time (during a slow time, rainy day, or day off) for $20, dinner, or beer. Choose someone, ask them when works and what they want (if they say no to cash, bring them a pizza and a 6 pack to share after you're done learning/asking questions).

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Hows it going. As a long time packer and teacher of packing courses to aff students I have had to come up with ways to help people UNDERSTAND what they are looking at and what they need to do to accomplish the goal. I have had to come up with new techniques often as every one learns/perceives in different ways. When you are done flaking the nose and have it between your legs, most people are able to find the manufacturers label when I ask them to. It is attached to the trailing edge or tail of the canopy. Once you have the tail in your hands(careful how you bend over to pick it up) slide one hand, and then follow with the other(no need to keep holding onto the label) one way or the other along the tail seem. You should run into one of the four steering lines. Keep sliding until you have all four steering lines in your hand. Hold those four lines out away from your body and the D lines should be the longest lines hanging down. If they are not hanging, lower your arm that is holding the four brake lines but still keep your arm straight away from your body. If you are doing the right side use your left arm to hold the brake lines, palm away from you, hand open, lines between thumb and fore finger. Keep your thumb and fore finger spread open to allow the weight of the canopy to keep tension on the lines.

If you have a nine cell canopy, non elliptical(square) there will be four lines per each letter group. If you have a seven cell non elliptical there will three lines per group. Dont worry about the stabilizer lines . Just let them float on the outside of the pack job for now. They are easy to identify, they are stitched to the canopy at 2 points.

Once you have the four steering lines up in your hand it is pretty easy to see the next set of lines if you hold the canopy at arms length away from you, but not up too high. The D lines should all be the same length, and the longest of all the line groups you should be able to see.Grab all four of them with your free hand and put them in the hand holding the brake lines. After that take your free hand (right hand if doing the right side)reach down inside and use the out side of your palm(palm facing your body, fingers pointing at the ground) in a "Karate chop" motion, gently move the material outwards. As you do this you will see the next set of line groups , the C lines moving. Grab all four or three with your free hand and put them up into the hand holding the brake lines and the D lines and repeat the "Karate chop" and you will see the next set of lines moving, the B group, repeat. When you flake between the B's and the A's, you will know you are done with that side because you will feel tugging on the nose you have between your legs.When you are done gently let the hand holding all of the line groups come towards your body, and down in order to keep slack out of the lines. Find the tail again(warning label) with out disturbing the pack job as best you can, and go opposite direction and find the brake lines again on the other side and repeat the process.

My students have found this very easy. No need to search down inside the canopy for the A's or B's etc. It is easy to find the tail and use the seem to cheat and find the brake lines without all the material in the way. Once you find the brake lines and move your hand away from your body not much material in the way and so on every time you put the next line group in your hand and extend away.

Another way to sort of cheat is when you locate the D lines, if you can not see all of the next line group moving as you Karate chop(only 3 out of 4) go back to the D's(or last line group) in your hand with the brake lines and go to the attachment point(where the line is attached to the canopy where two or more seems come together) of the D lines(or last line group you flaked in to your hand) and follow each one individually down the seem towards your body and you will find the next line for the next line group.

One way to make sure you have not grabbed one of the D's or C's etc from the other side of the canopy(easy to do as they are the same length and close to each other), follow them up to the slider and all of the D's or the C's etc should be going through the same grommet(D's and C's through the grommet on the back of the slider and B's and A's through same grommet on front half of slider), not 3 out out one and one out of the grommet on the other side.

I have used this method for a long time with both students and people that have their license but struggle, and it works.

I can try and put up a short video of that portion in the next couple of days.

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Good point sammielu. I always tell people, just pay it forward when I help a person, if you ever see some one struggling or you get asked for help when you are more experienced and if you dont feel comfortable passing on the knowledge your self refer them to me or some one you trust.

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Only 5 things are "must do" when packing mains.
All the rest are "should do" or "could do."

Must do: 1- lines straight
2- brakes set
3- slider all the way up
4- closing loop snug
5- bridle routed correctly

As long as the lines are neat, a ram-air canopy will open.

As for straightening out lines .... once you are satisfied that there are no step-throughs, set the brakes and slide your hands up the lines. Take the slider with you.
Look back to confirm that all lines are evenly tensioned.
Grab all the nose openings and pull them off to one side. Give them a light shake.
A lines will automatically fall together.
B lines will automatically fall together.
C lines get a bit vague, but are easy to find because they are all the same length.
What happens with the bottom skin is insignificant, so just start at the A lines and flake the stabilizers outboard of the lines. The easiest way is to start at an A line and follow the tape along the edge of the stabilizer.

D line placement does not have to be precise, as long as they remain near the centreline.
Same for steering lines.
"Steering lines over" are the most common result of sloppy packing.
So grab all the stray D and steering lines and pinch them through the center seam as you wrap the tail around he canopy.


Lummy gave some sound advice about bagging canopies. I start by folding the canopy on half (vertically) and stuffing the mid-point into the top corners of the d-bag. Then I scrunch the top quarter into the bag. Finally, I grab lines just below the slider and push the slider up until it "clunks" against the slider stops. Last step: shove the slider into the middle of the d-bag.

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flyingsky

I also have problems to identify the right lines and I am thinking to color code them. Can I just use regular marker to do it or is it unsafe for the lines?



Aerodyne color marks their lines for this reason and it does make packing a bit faster and more confident for me.

I will also add this. I never fully could visualize what I was doing in a pro-pack until I learned to flat pack where I could see what the canopy and lines looked like when laid out. It made a HUGE difference for me and can be done on a weather day. You don't need to put it in the bag from a flat pack you just see if in a different way. At least I did.
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WickedWingsuits


I will also add this. I never fully could visualize what I was doing in a pro-pack until I learned to flat pack where I could see what the canopy and lines looked like when laid out. It made a HUGE difference for me and can be done on a weather day. You don't need to put it in the bag from a flat pack you just see if in a different way. At least I did.



You can also pro-pack on the ground to help demonstrate what's going on. I generally pro-pack reserves on the ground as it lets me keep them nice and neat from the start.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
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+1 on the psycho pack...at least for my Sabre 2 (can't say how it would work for a smaller, more high performance canopy). EXACTLY the same flaking and line organization. Only difference is you roll it (after laying it down with a twist) instead of S-folding it. I was never good at the pro pack. Psycho pack gives me better slider control because the slider is trapped under my knee the entire time, easier to get into the bag because the pack job is tightly contained in the top skin. This is particularly true for a new, slick canopy.
I suppose it's not for everybody but, if you're having trouble with the pro pack, consider it as an option. It's not that different. I think people are reluctant to try it because it has such an unfortunate name.

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You do not need to do a full Psycho-Pack to benefit from the rolling stage.

I learned to roll canopies into the bag long before we heard of Psycho-Packing.

You have the option of Pro-Packing the canopy over your shoulder (or hook) then laying it gently on the floor. Tuck the sides in gently until it approaches the same width as the d-bag. Then start rolling at the top. The Pro/Roll method is as easy to bag as a Psycho-Pack.

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FWIW - before you take shortcuts from someone (or the internet), be sure you know what you're doing. When I was struggling to learn to pack other jumpers were constantly showing me "shortcuts". Fortunately (or unfortunately) I date a very experienced rigger with 15 years more experience than I have who still manages to catch me whenever I struggle or try something new wit packing. He always asks the same type of question, "how do you know...."
-the top skin of your canopy isn't going to rip off?
-that rubber band isn't going to break and cause an out of sequence deployment?
-the slider is still up and quartered?
-lines are still in the middle?

Whatever I was doing, I undid and went back to the original way I was taught without trying to change/cheat/simplify. It's hard to learn to pack any method, but it's way harder to learn several ways at once. Pick one and always do it that way. Ask any experienced packer which side of the canopy they pack from and if they can switch :) :) :)

And if you want a boost in self confidence, look in on a packing class to sympathize with the first timers. They are definitely having a harder time than you are now; it might make you feel a bit better about the parts you do know! Also- know the way you learn. I learn by taking notes, so in addition to tons of practice, I sat in on additional packing classes just to take notes, watch, visualize the parts I knew, and ask questions.

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riggerrob

You do not need to do a full Psycho-Pack to benefit from the rolling stage.

I learned to roll canopies into the bag long before we heard of Psycho-Packing.

You have the option of Pro-Packing the canopy over your shoulder (or hook) then laying it gently on the floor. Tuck the sides in gently until it approaches the same width as the d-bag. Then start rolling at the top. The Pro/Roll method is as easy to bag as a Psycho-Pack.



So do you roll it where the tail meets, on the outside of the roll? I have done a Pro-pack, tucked it all under, flipped it over, and rolled it much like a Psycho-pack. I just did that a couple of times and gave it up.

But I like the roll, so please give more detail on how you rolled the Pro-pack.

Thanks
Dan
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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